Camden School for Girls - Information needed

[MissScotland]

Hi mamas,

My daughter is in Y5 and we have kicked off the process of looking into secondary schools. Both our children have attended private schools from day one and so we have been focusing on private secondary education but then came across CSG which looks like it may suit her very well.
We do not live in the catchment and do not intend to move there (we are quite close though).
So we are aiming at entering through the music channel. DD is uber musical, currently working on Grade 6 piano and Grade 5 theory and will most certainly progress to Grade 7/8 before finishing primary school. She's a gifted little composer too. We (and her teachers) believe that she has a strong shot at getting a music scholarship or a place at a school based on her music skills and potential. She's also an excellent student academically and loves school.
I have read the information on the CSG website but would like hear more, ideally 1st hand, about the music application process and the aptitude test. The website is rather vague.
Anything you can tell me about the school would help, tips and insights are welcome :-)

Thanks in advance x

Sev - I wasn't "bragging", I was making a point about the random nature of the the test, and saying that even some young musicians who've reached a certain level will fail to pass this particular test, for whatever reason.

Personally, I think it's fantastic if a school is committed to opening access to music education, which is sadly increasingly becoming an activity that only the well-off can support. I just question that this test is the way to measure innate musicality.

Cingolimama I honestly believe they do, there’s already enough students accepted with high grade Musical abilities, and CGS Is truly offering girls outside the catchment area an opportunity. It’s only 8 places, I wish they offered a few more though. The School deserve recognition for this

On the other hand...as can be seen from this thread...

Camden’s intake is banded. These bands are formed from that years cohort of children who sit The banding test. Not the children who take the test. Not the ability of the children in the local area. The cohort who sit the test.

The music places mean that many parents try for a place for their child. These children tend to be from more middle class, wealthy, privately educated families. Not exclusively of course, but enough.

This means a high proportion of children who are used to sitting exams take the test. This changes the banding and the intake.

This is why the intake isn’t truly comprehensive as Camden says it is. It’s weighted towards the “top” and a certain type of family.

And yes I know “normal” girls from “normal” schools are there. I’m not thinking about individuals I’m thinking about the benefit of the music places for the school as a whole. I imagine the head of music doesn’t need to think about the bigger issue and from his point of view it works.

Anyhow this “weighting” can mean that very local children, particularly children from the lower bands, can’t get a place! Have you looked at the distance cut of for bands C and D this year? Very small.

Camden are still doing the banding test this year. Even after the difference in education over the last 6 months between all schools but particularly the independents and states. Which child will do better at the banding test this year? The child who had their own bedroom to study, wifi, a laptop; or the child who sleeps in a room with four siblings? Neither child may get in but the banding test will alter the individuals chances of doing so.

Personally I think it is what it is. You can try to change it if you feel it’s unequal. Some have. But What’s more important, to me at least, is that people understand what’s going on. Nothing personal against the school, no links to it. I’m just local and interested in education.

Hello Ladies
For all the mums who are thinking of putting their child through The CGS Musical Aptitude Test Pls have a plan B! This test is absolute bonkers! No child wether musical or non can prepare for it unless they have Information from friends accepted by the MAT themselves. It’s completely independent and supposedly designed to give every child a chance which really doesn’t make sense to me. This is a music test, and so many musical children are turned down because of it. The child doesn’t even need to know a key, but could jump into the top three without an audition! Thing is out of the 50 they only need to choose five amazing students anyway so it’s not really a problem for them. It’s all very contradicting in my opinion now that we’ve been through it. My daughter tried the Ashmole MAT which made more sense than this ever will! Included Texture, Pitch, Melody & Rhythm. It’s complete sense! When she was accepted to round 2 she did really well.
CGS is a very good school, always answered my emails and were very helpful, but this test isn’t a fair one and definitely is a lottery! I was disappointed for her to be honest as we thought she had a good chance, but when I read about the Music Head striving to be a country & western musician I didn’t mind so much haha! Now I’m off to burn those past MAT practice sheets and papers!!! Good Luck

A friend of DD is into the top 50 for this year and has the performance test this week. She has been learning piano for a few years now and they did learn violin as a class at school in Y4 and Y5. I would say she is a good musician for a 10 year old (certainly not a grade 8) and interested so in her case the test has done what it maybe should do.
My DD only did the banding test no music tests.

Vinorosso74 Not necessarily, there are grade 8 students that didn’t get into the top 50 and this shows that the test isn’t reliable. I don’t know what their agenda is to be honest, and frankly don’t care anymore. Somethings don’t happen for a good reason, onwards and upwards

www.theguardian.com/profile/willbyers?page=3

I think you might get a flavour of the “agenda” of the HoM by re-reading the old Guardian articles?

Surely getting to grade 8 is as much about keeping on doing it, parental input, tuition, as it is about aptitude. It’s about being able to recreate someone else’s musical ideas.

I get the impression musical aptitude is different or includes some of the above but is more than it.

Parli anyone?

@SevDem

Vinorosso74 Not necessarily, there are grade 8 students that didn’t get into the top 50 and this shows that the test isn’t reliable. I don’t know what their agenda is to be honest, and frankly don’t care anymore. Somethings don’t happen for a good reason, onwards and upwards

Not really - you can get to G8 without necessarily being incredibly musical.

More and more children are playing to high level these days without doing any exams at all. They're certainly not required.

There's a lot to be said for playing for enjoyment and not just hunting down the next certificate and not being on the exam treadmill means you can cover far more material and in different directions.

Having done a large number of the MAT tests last year, I would say that they are reasonably good at picking out very musical children - the chances of a child who isn't getting through them is practically zero. However the child with the G8 certificate may just not have as good an ear or actually be as musical as the child with no certificates at all or a G2 or 3.

@OhCrumbsWhereNow

This is where I get confused, I understand you completely but the school insists that the child doesn’t need to be musical at all when doing the aptitude test. What’s the point then? Out of the fifty they pick out the most musical, so ultimately they have to be very good with their ear and playing. I actually asked this question to the school, they replied by saying that the government makes them to this particular aptitude test, and the School deals with the audition. I’m not 100% but this test is completely different to most schools.
How did it go for you last year? What Schools were you interested in if you don’t mind me asking. I don’t like pressurising my daughter generally, and she loves playing her own tunes etc but I really had to push her with these MAT tests, it’s been exhausting!!

Well I think DD's friend has done well! The head of music sounds interesting.....
I think this thread explains the reason we have not gone for the selective route for DD.

@Vinorosso74 I wish all Musical Aptitude students the best!

It would be great to know how some got on at the recent musical aptitudes? Including SMG / WLFS & of course CSG. Also how about banding at CSG? We tried WLFS but didn’t make the mark but no big expectations as my child is not overly musical but simply enjoys playing piano and has learnt several other instruments.

I was really dismayed my child’s Band was disclosed as C following her test, as would have expected B as she has been mildly tutored this past year but goes to a State Primary.

Obviously, being for admissions purposes and not streamed classes, I am not letting it bother me too much!

My daughter is in Band B but we won’t be applying as she wasn’t accepted for the aptitude test, missed by a few marks. I’m a little confused with the Banding, are the higher bands related to higher marks in the test?

Thanks SevDem - the banding is related to their scoring from the GL Assessment (A being the highest scoring) so that they can evenly distribute intake across all abilities), but the school are unable to disclose the exact scoring, just the band for admissions purposes.

@SevDem What do you mean by she wasn't accepted for the aptitude test? I thought that you just need to sign up to take the test...?

@MissScotland As in she didn’t pass the Musical Aptitude test. We did sign up

@MumsRule10 Thankyou for explaining. Did your child do their musical aptitude test?

Shamelessly want to follow this thread for information. My dd is only 23 months

@SevDem No, she didn’t do the musical
aptitude as we knew it would be such a long shot for CSG and I know a number of girls who tried there and SMG this year and didn’t get through first round. She only did the musical aptitude test for WLFS on Friday and unfortunately didn’t get that. Again, highly competitive, although I know children who got a place via musical aptitude in recent years separately at either of the schools. We really had no expectations as she isn’t overly musical and we didn’t prep. She just has an enjoyment but it is not an absolute forte.

@SevDem I am sorry yours just missed the mark. Tough call when it comes so close and hear it really is much more rigorous process at CSG (which is why we gave it a miss). So, what are you thinking to do now? Only a few days left before application deadline. Nerve wracking business...

@Breastfeedingworries Seriously??? Hope you are kidding!! How did you end up on this thread? Don’t for a minute start thinking about Secondary school! You will miss all the super precious moments you have with your bubba. Even thinking about nursery should maybe just be entering your head. I have only just and am still trying to work out best fit for my child now, in my experience it only becomes clear what their strengths truly are in terms of academic / development / personality etc. when they are about 10 years old that you get an inkling and even then as she says it is so hard to know if a school we choose is really the right one until we are there as everything before is based on positive spin / marketing / here-say etc. Schools also change constantly. Who knows where you will be living 8 years? I hope you were kidding ;)

@MumsRule10 Luckily she has a sibling in Fortismere School so will be applying there/ very similar to CSG but mixed. She did actually get 21st place MAT in Ashmole School but we aren’t considering it as Fortismere results are better. CSG MAT didn’t include pitch and texture, this test isn’t relevant in my opinion & shouldn’t be allowed. My daughter said that the Ashmole test included everything and made so much more sense unlike the CSG. I honestly feel bad putting her through it after all
that preparation, what a waste of time! I know every school has their own rules but this test is unfair

Okay I’ll elaborate I’m interested in the idea of scholarships as I’m a single parent and unlikely to earn enough to pay for a place. Maybe in 8 years I’ll be better off or married but I curious and wanted to read on and think about what activities and hobbies like music could support my dd.
(She seems very bright ect and it’s pointless posting about any toddlers achievements without sounding like “that” mum)

Anyway I’m only reading this ect to gain a bit of info. She’s starting nursery next week.

Are you sure you're thinking of the right school @Breastfeedingworries ?
CSG isn't a fee-paying school.

@Breastfeedingworries I hear you but 100% rest assured a huge amount can change in that time. All your little one needs at this age is love, love and more love. Fun play, songs and rhymes, outdoors play, nature, you talking to them, travel where you can, chat to each and everyone all walks of life, read them lots of books and play a bit of music by all means and let them create and explore as they need to. Lots of exposure for all senses. I remember being told that 5 is a good age to introduce an instrument if they love music, but any earlier is just a bit much.

You might think a your child is capable of a scholarship or academic all the way up to the applicable age (as I did and have to keep reminding myself), but it then turns out that actually that isn’t the case. The reality is very different and easy to find oneself surrounded by a cohort of very bright and able children and the competition super tough esp if one’s child has not been to a prep school. Yet saying that, I know many who finish state school primary - well rounded and naturally able with very minimal tutor input - and they make the mark and several gaining scholarships (art / music / academic) at both privates and sought after states.

But ultimately you want a happy child and a right fit for your child and to let them enjoy the learning and process along the way so that they can be a happier person in the future.

If you are unable to afford the schooling later, that is what bursaries are for and some of the best schools offer many great options if your child has the academic ability and passes the assessment.

Sorry @SevDem I realise I have moved this away from the original point of your thread which is a great and honest digress. It is a good thing you have aired your views on the musical aptitude for CSG. I expect it has to be that much more rigorous due to the high number of applicants. Yet and unfair selective process if the bar is set so high and uniquely. Each school has their own approach it seems and none of them perfect and important not to be disheartened. I am pleased you have a great first choice and with a sibling there.