Maths A level a virtuous circle?

[EwwSprouts]

Comments on a number of other threads have said schools are requiring GCSE minimum 7/8/9 or even 8/9 to be allowed to do maths A level as it is so difficult. If schools are permitting 6/7/8 students to go on to A level in humanities or other sciences, given the adjustments to A level grades each year to ensure the % allocations of grades is similar, is it becoming more likely an able but not brilliant student will score a lower grade in maths A level? Not because the paper is more difficult but because the range of abilities entered is increasingly narrow?

Yes i think so. Dd has gone for Maths, Biology and French which are all like that unfortunately.

My children’s school requires a minimum of a 7 to study any subject (plus an average point score across all subjects taken).

The percentage of top grades available in harder subjects like maths is higher to reflect the more capable cohort sitting the exams but it still isn't enough. Ofqual investigated this in 2018, report attached, and decided to do nothing about it.

All of DS1's subject choices were included in this report but I persuaded DD to swap chemistry for something much easier to go with Maths, Biology and French and she is very grateful I did. What really annoys me is that the sensible choice is to drop the french for next year as she won't need a language for uni and it will be much easier to get a higher grade at her easy subject (she is already predicted an A*).

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/757841/ISC_Decision_Document_20.11.18.pdf

My son has a predicted 7 and has already been told that it is going to be extremely difficult. Unfortunately he needs it to pursue what he wants to do at university so there is no option to drop it. He's just going to have to really knuckle down.

This is probably going off at a bit of a tangent, but, whereas in other subjects it is accepted that the A level requires study and work, there is a perception of only natural mathematicians will ever be good at maths.

I have a dd who is very good at maths. She is good at maths because she works at it. She hardly ever understands new things the first time through, but improves her understanding slowly every time she goes over it again.

To start an A level with the idea that it is beyond their capabilities will be a self fulfilling prophecy. To turn to every new topic with the worry it will be beyond them, will make study difficult and unappealing. Much better to start with the idea first time through is just finding out what is there.

As GCSEs have been cancelled, there is nothing stopping prospective students getting CGP books now and getting a head start. There is also Khan Academy, Numberphiles and 3blue1brown.

Some people will have to do more work than others to gain understanding. But mathematicians are not a breed apart with completely different brains. The majority of humans have brains wired with the ability to do maths.

The biggest problem with maths is that if you don't understand something properly, you can often get by for a couple of years, but then that gap further down the wall starts to matter. It's not so much hitting a ceiling as gaps in the foundations.

For some subjects, the gaps which meant they didn't get the top grades at GCSE will get patched up naturally - or may even not matter at all. With maths, the ideal would be to stop and find the GCSE gaps before moving on to A-level, but that's not how it works.

This paper looks at different ways of measuring difficulty, and might be an interesting read:
www.stem.org.uk/elibrary/resource/27200

Apparently one method used by exam boards is to look at students who do the same pair of subjects, and how they score in each. Presumably if they all tend to do better in physics than chemistry, say, then they know that perhaps the balance needs adjusting.

Maths is really one subject where you have to have very firm foundations, i.e. fully understand all the earlier/lower topics before you can move on to higher levels as everything follows on. There are few new topics (if any) that don't require an in depth ability/knowledge of lower levels. Anything less that top grades at GCSE isn't really a strong enough foundation for A level (unless the pupil had been consistently working at higher levels but the GCSE result was an anomaly due to illness etc). I got a grade B at O level and spent two years really struggling with A level Maths, ending up with a very low grade.

Completely agree with both have to have very firm foundations and absolutely with if you don't understand something properly, you can often get by for a couple of years, but then that gap further down the wall starts to matter. It's not so much hitting a ceiling as gaps in the foundations.

Ds got a 9 in maths and an 8 in stats. He is doing maths and FM, you needed a 7 to take FM. He helps his mate who is just doing maths as it is clear he has managed to get to this point before the gaps are starting to hinder him. He was missing basic fundamentals which shocked Ds as I think he got at least a 7 at GCSE.

@0DimSumMum0 he has a few months before sixth form, he could easily increase his knowledge of maths over the summer. You just need a can do attitude. There are loads of online resources that will push his GCSE knowledge, he can commit to X number of minutes or hours a day. Ds1 learnt a new language for fun over the summer after GCSEs!

CakeIs Thanks for the link, I wasn't aware of that.

Ianthanum Will also read your link.

Interesting Kitty and does give out the message all A levels are equally hard & should be approached with equal commitment/enthusiasm. Doesn't seem from on here & my local knowledge to be widespread practice.

DS intends to do maths A level & should get a good grade at GCSE (8 in mock). I just wonder if he would be better advised to do a different option as he has no plans to do maths/engineering/medicine.

@Georgielovespie Thank you for your encouragement. This is definitely the attitude we are going with. Trying to keep as positive and as encouraging as possible. He is already working with a private tutor who we will keep during the summer holidays to give him as much a head start as possible.

give out the message all A levels are equally hard & should be approached with equal commitment/enthusiasm
But they are NOT all equally hard!

In my 20 or so years’ experience teaching maths, children tend on average to roughly get a similar percentage score at A level to at GCSE (I even have a graph of previous students’ GCSE vs A level scores I bring in at year 11 parents’ evening!). The problem is that the grade boundaries at GCSE fall off pretty quickly, so in old money, 65% would probably get you an A, but that would be a C at A level. 45% might get you a B, which would be an E

@EwwSprouts does he have any idea whatsoever of what he might like to do? If so have a look at university courses and see what they are looking for. But, don't underestimate how good a maths A level looks on your CV.

The way we look at this is that nowadays we have the internet. That means that should a child struggle to grasp a concept at maths there are hundreds of videos on YouTube that literally walk you through it. In my son's sixth form there is a 30 minute slot open at the end of every day for students to access their teachers for help.

Ds is doing 4 A levels but he still has 6 hours of free periods during the week so does his homework then. He doesn't do an EPQ though due to doing 4 A levels.

Having seen it with my own son this is about attitude and priorities. Basically a yes I can do this, he worked hard for his GCSEs and hasn't found A levels difficult at all. Lots of children can coast through their GCSEs but then struggle with A level because they have never had to work for it.

@0DimSumMum0 excellent news about the tutor. He can idenitfy areas that your son needs to build on if any. I usually have this conversation with 8 year olds, but look at it this way, how many hours is your son awake for on average on a weekday? How many hours could he dedicate to furthering his maths? This is about dividing the time up to be productive. It still leaves a lot of free time.

I just wonder if he would be better advised to do a different option as he has no plans to do maths/engineering/medicine.

Does he have any idea what he does want to do? Maths is relevant in other areas (economics is the obvious one).

Focussing on grades rather than on what skills and knowledge they will be acquiring is a pretty shallow approach to education imo. If he's predicted an 8 at gcse then there's no reason to suppose he can't get a decent a level grade anyway - it might or might not be harder work for him versus an essay subject.

Who is likely to to best long term - someone who takes the easy options or someone who accepts a bit of a challenge?

@cakeisalwaystheanswer what is your dd's 'easy' A Level option, out of interest?

Georgie The maths dept at school have been 'selling' it to students on the basis it makes you look smart. . He has a science leaning and favourite subject at the moment is biology.

Errol I don't think it's shallow when it would be a swop to another academically robust subject. If he is unlikely to need A level maths for whatever becomes his choice of university applications is it a good decision? He'd probably opt for chemistry or geography instead. I would always want him to be up for a challenge but if it's likely to impact the opportunity of the challenge of a better quality degree course I think it should be considered eyes open?

I don't think it's shallow when it would be a swop to another academically robust subject. If he is unlikely to need A level maths for whatever becomes his choice of university applications is it a good decision? He'd probably opt for chemistry or geography instead. I would always want him to be up for a challenge but if it's likely to impact the opportunity of the challenge of a better quality degree course I think it should be considered eyes open?

Chemistry and Geography aren't equal either. Some Universities will accept students onto Geography related degree course without an A level in it. However, you won't find a Uni accepting students onto a Chemistry or Biology degree course without an A level in Chemistry or Biology.

A level Maths is one of the most popular (if not THE most popular) A level.

I'm not sure chemistry is any easier to get a top grade in than maths. A lot of kids seem to really struggle with it at A level.

If he wants to do biology then sure, chemistry is one of the other obvious choices to go with it - but so is maths. It may also be worth bearing in mind that there's usually something of an oversupply of biological science type grads, so it may be useful in the long term to have the maths.

Some Universities will accept students onto Geography related degree course without an A level in it.

I know someone who was told by Cambridge geog they'd be quite happy if she dropped geog and did maths, physics and eng lit. She dropped the latter and kept geog, but I thought that was quite interesting that they took that view. Her eventual geog research field is very mathsy... lots of stats.

If he has a science leaning then he should be doing maths. The degrees might not state maths as a requirement, but he will be at a disadvantage without it due to the amount of maths content and not having done maths for two years.

It’s a widely respected A-level, it is useful for many degree courses and it increases your earning potential!

A levels aren’t equally hard. If you looked at the children that managed an 8 in english lit and an 8 in maths at gcse, I‘d say that most of them could easily get a B or better in english lit at A Level. I would definitely not say that most of them could easily get a B or more in maths at A Level.

Noble your comment about being disadvantaged having not done maths for two years carries a lot of weight.

Thanks for all the insights & collective wisdom. Really interesting about geography not requiring geography.

Really interesting about geography not requiring geography.

Some unis will... it's just not as absolute as the requirements for maths and chemistry for various courses. Not doing maths shuts doors, and it may make unis bit harder if they have to catch up on eg stats.

@crazycrofter - Psychology, it is very straightforward but it is not a particularly useful A level to have. French would be far more practical to continue with but 75% of the class are native speakers as it was with DS1 so it will be hard and a lot of work to get a high grade. It would also make all 3 of her A levels at the top end of the difficulty spectrum (see ofqual report above) whereas continuing with psychology would give her more time to spend on the other 2.

@cakeisalwaystheanswer oh good! Dd is starting A Levels in Sept and is doing Psychology, alongside History and RS. Glad to hear it’s not too hard!