Should DS take A Level maths?

[RedskyAtnight]

DS's dilemma (he's in Year 11, running out of time to make decision).

He definitely wants to study Geography A Level next year.

He is quite keen on the idea of studying Physics A Level, but he would have to also take A Level maths, which he doesn't want to do.

He has ruled out studying basically every other subject.
The only other thing he's vaguely interested in is the Cambridge Tech IT Diploma (equivalent to 2 A Levels) because he's liked studying Computer Science (not offered at A Level at his current school and he doesn't want to move) at GCSE. I'm not sure this is right for him, because actually he's mostly enjoyed the programming aspect, which isn't included in this qualification, and I'm not sure where he goes at 18 after a Geography A Level and a Cambridge Tech IT Diploma.

He might be interested in studying Computer Science at university but again they would want A Level maths. He wasn't desperately keen on the idea of going into an IT related apprenticeship (which is the only thing I can think of that would naturally follow on from the Cambridge Tech). It does look like at least some universities would take him onto a Geography degree with Geog A Level plus the IT diploma, so that's a possible future option (although I don't know if in practice this would be less preferred than a candidate with 3 A Levels).

His ultimate plan (at the moment) is to join the army. He originally had this as a plan for after sixth form, but after talking to some people we know who are ex-army, he's now thinking he would do better to get some further qualifications first (hence he's started thinking about university).

His teacher assessed GCSE grades are likely to not be that good (erratic worker, plus undiagnosed learning difficulty, was massively improving through Year 11 but we suspect it won't have been enough) but we are not expecting him to have any issues with getting into his school sixth form to study any of these choices (another reason he wants to stay there as there's a good chance he won't make entry criteria for other places). His teachers for all these subjects are happy for him to study them Post 16 (and in respect of maths, his teacher suggested he should also consider further maths, so no concerns about ability).

The problem is that DS just doesn't like maths. He also struggled with some of the later topics they studied, and with the premature end of school has not been able to revise these in the way he normally would. Consequently he has little confidence in his maths ability (not withstanding teacher saying he thinks DS is more than capable of A Level). However, I have a maths degree, and we are in the fortunate position to be able to pay for tutoring if need be, so he can have as much outside help as he needs. I also think maths+physics will be lower workload than 2 unrelated A Levels, so he can spend more time on it if he needs to.

Sorry, that was a long post. I guess my gut feeling is I think he should take maths, physics and geography A Levels, but I also think he shouldn't study a subject he's not keen on. Trouble is there doesn't seem to be an ideal alternative ...

Don't know what others think? Has anyone else been in the position where their DC took an A Level they weren't keen on to enable other choices?

Econ is fine at A Level without maths, but you need maths A level, not Econ to do it as a degree. Important to know that when choosing.

DS took Economics at GCSE, absolutely loathed it and suspects he'll fail to get a 4. So I think it's safe to say that is on the "never under any circumstances no matter how many pushes come to shoves list". :)

(I was actually surprised as I really thought it was a subject he'd find interesting and do well at, which just goes to show that you never can tell.)

To be honest, if he's going to fail to get a 4 at Economics, are A Levels really the right thing? Many of the skills in geography would be similar and if a child has the ability to do essay-based A Levels, they should be able to get passes (4s are not a particularly high standard to reach) in any of the humanities. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but perhaps an alternative route might be better or worth considering?

@Wombatchocolate it may depend on whether the 4 was because he could not do the work or because he hates the teacher/could not be bothered. If a DC gets a 4/5 despite working hard and trying to do well, that is different. When I was at school there were bright kids (mostly boys) who decided not to engage and I am sure it was frustrating for their parents!

I agree with those wondering what it is he doesn't like about maths. If his teacher could see he had the potential to handle further maths, and he has some interest in computing and in physics, that all points to someone who could find maths enjoyable given the right circumstances.

So, can you identify more specifically whether he finds certain things boring, or doesn't like following a set format to work through a question, or doesn't like the logical steps or leaps with which certain topics have been presented - but might find it makes more sense with a different approach? I'm thinking that you might be able to ascertain that he has gaps to fill and then will be happier; or that the more advanced maths courses will actually suit him better; or some other reason. If maths is truly definitely out then he will be limited by this later on I think.

I don't know much about army careers but could imagine him being encouraged to do more maths in relevant areas as part of technical training once he joins. I know my daughter had a little look at army and navy recruitment (does CCF at school) and could see that they would want her to go down some sort of tech line (with strong maths and science GCSEs) when actually she's deciding to pursue humanities.

A level maths is hard! I know several year 12’s with a 9 at GCSE who are finding it a challenge.

Perhaps it is a maturity issue too. Some students don't do so well at GCSE because they only work hard at things they like or where they like the teacher. Very Clever students can get really good grades at GCSE even with little work, but the more average student might need to do some work to get good grades. To be honest though, a 4 really is a pretty low level in any subject for someone want ing to do A Levels, so I'd expect that even with little or no work, they would get the grade and pass. Anything which isn't a very basic pass (4) woukd be a red flag for me and lots of schools and colleges require all subjects to have been passed....but that's not a particularly high bar for most A Level students who are hoping to get decent grades.

I think there is a big difference between a student who is a bit lazy and scrapes a clutch of 6s with an odd 7 when they really should have got 8s, and the student who ends up with mostly 4s and 5s with a couple of 3s thrown in. The latter doesn't really seem to be A Level material. Attitude is important too. I know some 16 years can be very immature and develop during 6th Form, but the lazy student doing something like Maths, with a disappointing starting grade (very few places would let you start with less than a 7 in maths and actually be a bit concerned about the person with a 7 who lacked any really natural feel in maths, but literally scraped the 7) isn't really looking at good outcomes. Just being realistic.

Most schools and colleges will take someone who meets the school/college entry requirements for A Level study and require 6 minimum for most subjects but require 7 in maths (or 8 in some schools) for doing maths or physics. Some will require this for other sciences too. Selective schools would want 7s in the subjects being studied as a minimum. For new subjects like psychology or possibly economics of politics (often not offered at GCSE) they will want 6s/7s in the GCSEs closely related in terms of skills.

In my experience, weaker A Level students (with a profile of 6s and 7s) get better A Levels by doing humanities than languages, sciences or maths. I think humanities are more accessible to a range of students. The more able understand and write onan deeper level but the less able can still access the material and understand and prod uensolidnif not great answers and enjoy it. Some subjects like maths are totally miserable if you're really not up to it. With Maths, the advice of the maths teacher is really important. Some students will scrape a 7 or even an 8 and the teacher will be able to say that maths just isn't their thing, or that they really have got some capacity for higher level study of it. What is on paper isn't the full story, especially when boundaries can be extremely low.

Seek the advice of the teachers who know your son. They should be able to advise - ask for real honesty!

OP he is old enough to understand that doing Physics A level would require some fundamental knowledge of Maths. So it is like pushing water upwards. He is asking for the impossible and wound venture to say deep inside half knows it. Have you challenged him on this? The message is, no point wishing for something that can't happen. I would also ask him to go through the list again and if he really wants to study Geography at uni, look for some A levels that may complement that. Easy to rule out subjects, a lot more difficult to rule them in. Herein lies the challenge, time to get real me says.