Secondary Appeal - This Friday!!

[FanFckingTastic]

We have our son's secondary appeal this Friday. Given the current situation it's being held virtually and I wondered if anyone else has had there's yet and can advise on how it will work? We've been given 30 mins which seems pretty short. I'm not sure what the format will be e.g. do the LA give their case first, with us able to ask questions, or is it the other way round, with the LA questioning us? We've now been given the details of the panel members and I notice that one of them is the head of SENCO for the school - this may be relevant because we are appealing on SEN grounds, but I thought that the panel was supposed to be impartial?

Finally, I'm trying to write a brief summation to conclude our case and wondered if anyone has any tips, or things that are good / or not so good to include? We've had to submit all of our information already and have now got the LA's case. This mostly centres around the potential for disruption to other students, shorter time available in dining halls etc. I am thinking of stressing that the LA's case only demonstrates potential issues, e.g. there is no proof that the addition of a further child would result in these issues. I also want to reference how we are viewing the disadvantage / impact - so in my view, children at the school are not hugely disadvanted by spending a few minutes less time in the dinner hall, whereas my son will be massively disadvantaged by not attending the school that is best placed to manage his needs (anxiety, self harm etc, backed up by CAMHS) Would something like this be useful?

Any hints / tips / general hand holding would be much appreciated!

I also thought the panel was supposed to be impartial.

My appeal wasn't online. In mine, the clerk read out my supporting statement and every panel member had a copy and afterwards they asked me questions about it. They asked me a few times throughout the appeal if I had anything to add etc. I always felt listened to.

Then the admissions man talked, mostly about practicalities such as fire exits. Then they asked him questions and then I was invited to ask him questions which I did.

At the beginning they told me I would find out in three days which I hadn't realised, I thought it would be on the same day but at the end they said they were going to make a decision and the admissions representative and I had to wait outside.

Before hand I made notes so I didn't leave anything out. I was determined to to be emotional and I had to dig my nails into my leg. It's really hard talking about your child's future in this way but I knew I wasn't going to help by weeping.

She got a place and I cried when I went into the toilets afterwards.

Thank you Pepe. If you don't mind me asking, what kind of questions did you ask the admissions person?

I agree that it's going to be hard to not be emotional - at least because it's online they will only be able to see my face, so I can at least wring my hands without anyone noticing!

I'm a former governor so have been involved in this kind of think a little.

The SENCO will need to be involved to understand the SEN requirements of your child. They will be there to provide expert advice, not to be partial.

The school/LA will have to provide evidence as to why they are unable to meet your child's needs - if he has the potential to disrupt other students, they need to demonstrate how/why they would not be able to manage this. eg classrooms too small (not a good example), or whatever.

SEN kids come with extra money for the school, so cost should not be an issue. Ask them why they can't provide the resources to manage your child.

Why do you think that your son will be "massively disadvantaged" by not attending this particular school? Do you have research to prove that is best placed to manage his needs out of all the possible schools he could attend? If so - send it to them.

Thanks for the advise @WhatWouldDominicDo, much appreciated! It makes sense that the SENCO is there for that reason, however the LA are not saying that they cannot meet my son's needs - we didn't get a place on their over subscription criteria unfortunately. He doesn't currently have an ECHP and is ok academically.

There are a number of reasons why my son will be disadvantaged by not attending this particular school and I've already outlined these in the statement that I've had to send to the panel. These include access to a PAT dog (not available at the school he has been given) Access to specific support that will help him with his individual requirements (again, not available at the same level with the school allocated) A mixed environment (allocated school is all boys) and most importantly location. The school that we are appealing for is a stone's throw away from his primary school, and they have close links. This is important because he feels comfortable there (his primary school use their hall, and sports facilities etc, his classmates and friends from the local community are there) He has GAD, amongst other things, and suffers from panic attacks. He struggles with new environments and also cannot get himself to and from school independently, so from a logistical point of view I cannot get his sibling to primary school and get him to a secondary school some miles away. He's very vulnerable and self harms so for me, the disadvantage both mentally and physically will be massive. All of my points have has been confirmed in supporting documents from his current school, CAMHS, his pediatrician etc and I've submitted this, but I'm looking to do some kind of summation at the end to reiterate my main points. In your experience, is this the kind of thing that happens and would be useful?

Ours, the school presented thier case to the panel first, the panel asked a few questions then opened up questions from parents. Non of this was specific to our child, but a general information about the school being at capacity and not able to take additional children. In our case, this section had all the families who were appealing, so we were asked to keep any issues were specific to our individual children to our individual hearings.

To b honest, there wasn't really much for us to question, there were no surprises in the schools case, or irregularities. Just that the school can only take so many, and we lived slightly further away.

For our part, we focused entirely on our childs needs and the reasons we felt she would be best in this particular school. Similar to your son, she has anxiety and other difficulties, backed up with evidence from her peaditrcian. So attending the secondary which she was familiar with (primary worked closely with them being next door), staying with friends and being able to make her way to school independently. We also talked about the support she needs from us for out of school social stuff, easy for us to do with a network of parents we already knew, but much more complex if we lost that network as we don't have the school gate get to know youmstuff at secondary.

Like someone else mentioned we didn't get an answer straight away, the panel need to hear the cases for everyone making an appeal. So, for example they decide based on the school's case that 2 extra students would be fine, they hear all the families before working out which have the most compelling case.

The panel were really good at helping us keep calm, asking where they wanted more info and making sure we'd said all we needed to, it really wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. They also had several boxes of tissues, you won't be the first to get emotional. I would probably have a box, just out of shot.

The questions I asked the admissions were about the process as my dd had no place at all at any school but the county didn't have lists of where any places were and the schools wouldn't tell me so I had to apply and then be rejected in order to see if there was a place. And in the meantime dd was out of school completely. He couldn't tell me but it made the panel aware I was between a rock and a hard place.

The panel is supposed to be impartial. The SENCO may give evidence but should not be part of any discussions. As they work for the school they must not be in the same room (or virtual room) as the appeal panel unless you are there as well.

The Appeals Code no longer lays down a compulsory process but most appeals still follow the same process. After introductions the school's representative will present the case to refuse admission. You will be given a chance to question them. The panel may also ask some questions. You then present your case, after which the school's representative and the panel may question you. The school's representative sums up then you sum up, then that is the end of the hearing. The appeal panel then make their decision in private. They won't decide your case until they have heard all the appeals for this school.

It sounds like you have a decent case. The limited information you've posted about the LA's case suggests it is fairly standard so you have a reasonable chance of success.

Regarding questions to ask, look for weak points in the case to refuse admission and use your questions to highlight them. For example, if they talk about overcrowding leading to health and safety risks, ask them how many accidents they have had in the last 5 years that have been caused by overcrowding. The answer is almost certainly none.

Good luck.

Like I said, an SEN child will bring extra money with them. Have you asked the other potential schools why they can't provide what your child needs? Not available now doesn't mean not possible tomorrow.
I think it would be helpful to outline WHY the other schools can't put the support in place that your child needs, not just that they don't offer it now.
If you want your appeal to be successful, you're going to have to do some thorough prep and provide evidence that none can argue with re why your child can only attend one particular school.

Are there any other reasons non SEN related why you want that school? Would you accept a different school if it could put the sport in place?

Support, not sport.

Oh, and don't bring other children in to it. It's not your place to decide whether or not other children will be disadvantaged by having your son in that school. You need to concentrate on why it's the right and only place that can give your son the support he needs with strong evidence to back that claim up.

Thanks all, really helpful advice!

@WhatWouldDominicDo, you raise a good point with regards to other schools being able to provide what my DS needs, but just to answer your question it's not just about the SEN support within the school, although clearly this is a major factor. It's also about the location and about him feeling comfortable and confident at a school that he has already had links with, within a wider community that he's already part of. This cannot be replicated at any other school. Thanks for questioning on me on this though, as no doubt these are the kind of questions that I could be asked on the day, and it's really helpful to have thought through my responses!

Mine was a little like that as it was an in year entry for our catchment school where we had moved out of the area and then returned. Although dd had not ever been to the school it was our local,school and beneficial for her to be in the only area she would be familiar with.

I think what helped us was that the school was very ordinary and not one that people were necessarily trying to push their way into. It wasn't better than other schools for everybody it was just better for my dd.

It's also about the location and about him feeling comfortable and confident at a school that he has already had links with, within a wider community that he's already part of

This would apply to any child though - you need to concentrate on his individual needs, and how this is the ONLY school that can support him.

how this is the ONLY school that can support him

This is often said on threads about school appeals but it isn't true. You don't have to prove this is the only school that can support him, just that it is better able to support him than the allocated school. Other schools don't enter into the equation at all.

Amounts to the same thing though. OP needs to demonstrate with evidence that the child will be disadvantaged by going to the other schools, there for this being the only suitable school.
If the other school (s)

Oops

If the other schools are suitable, the child can go to one of them.

But that’s not what this appeal it about. It’s about the school she is appealing for only. The ‘other schools’, which you have just imagined up, don’t come in to it at all.

I think you're agreeing with me

OP needs to demonstrate with evidence that the child will be disadvantaged by going to the other schools

No, not other schools plural. Other school singular. The only other school that will be considered is the school that was offered. There may be another school in the area that is even better for the OP's child than the appeal school but that will not be a consideration.

How did it go @FanFckingTastic.

Thanks for thinking of me @PepeSkunk

I think that it went as well as it could. I had written out both my opening case and the closing statement so that I could be sure that I had said everything and I felt that I got all of my points in. The panel seemed ok and only asked me a few questions. The school representative was particularly friendly and nice and I actually felt quite bad challenging her on her numbers (I still did though!) We've been told that we have to wait until all cases have been heard so we won't hear until this week at some point. At least I feel that I've done everything that I can - fingers crossed it goes our way!

Hope you had good news @FanFckingTastic

Thanks for all your good wishes and many thanks for the help. Unfortunately we didn't get the news we were hoping for. At least I feel that I gave it everything and it's a really hard process. As CAMHS have requested a single sex school however, the LA are now looking at what else they can do which may be a small consolation.

Oh, I’m sorry to hear it wasn’t successful.

Sorry to hear that. Hope you get offered something suitable very soon.