independent vs local schools

[Rabbitit]

Ds will be year 7 this Sept. Just got an offer and now struggling to choose between private or a good local Catholic school . Would anyone know is private really much better than a good local school ? A bit lost

Again I couldn’t agree more with this. I know so many kids who have had additional tutoring outside school..from year 2 up-to A level. Forced on them in pursuit of a better grade or a particular test...it adds very little to their joy of learning or inspiration for a subject. It’s a means to an end. Perhaps if that’s your ultimate goal for your child, which it sadly is for many, then yes it might help, but otherwise there is little to be gained. I’ve seen the struggling C graders..scrape a better B, or in some cases..not even scrape at all. They are a yawning bore for many kids at the end of school, I know mine would never have entertained the idea.
My eldest attended a ‘soft selective’ independent, but one that offered a broad range of enrichment, and an environment she was able to learn without constant pressure to churn out top grades..she simply thrived there, and did very well. My youngest will be attending a more selective school, but still not pushy by many top school standards; with the main emphasis being on her having the opportunity to explore a whole raft of things she would never get to try at the local grammar. She loves sport, but is not robust A team material...so she won’t have to worry about not being picked for the team. She loves music, and will have a wealth of musical opportunity on offer, not to mention an incredibly impressive music centre with practice rooms and pianos galore! There is so much on offer..it comes at a price of course, and many are incredulous as to why we are choosing to pay, rather than send our very bright child to a top performing grammar. But beyond the grades they boast, it simply does not have enough to offer, and we feel her life would have been less enriched and more stressful.

DD is not a self starter but could do well under guidance and some pushing/ monitoring. He is not a sporty type , so these kind of facilities won't bother me much. He enjoys orchestra which both schools offer this. When comparing academic results, the private is a top 40 on those so called league table which largely based on GCSE / A level results. Both schools top 30 results are within 9-7 range for core subjects but of course private one has higher like above 50. As for DD himself, he doesn't have a strong preference as he has only seen the school and talked to staff briefly but not knowing how exactly it would be like when school starts .

A top 40 private school is selective and high achieving. The league tables rank the schools pretty well. You might also want to look at subjects studied. Some comps have lots of soft A levels in the mix. Lots of academic private schools don’t even teach them. Compare like with like in terms of exams.

My DDs were not sporty but discovered so much more! LAmDA and MUN, house competitions, singing and drama etc. Boys will also be encouraged to participate in a whole variety of clubs and activities. Possibly art or Marshall arts? You never know. But there should be a wealth of possibilities and, if you are paying, the opportunities should excite him. If he’s not interested in anything then I possibly wouldn’t pay. What are his hobbies at the moment?

Sometimes though the interest isn’t sparked until they get the chance to try it out?
What I noticed with music for instance; the state grammar schools we visited, had their best musicians on show. The grade 8 on arrival at the school kind of child, from an interest sparked elsewhere. Whereas some of the children we spoke to at our chosen school, only discovered their passion or talents..upon joining the school. There’s a huge difference. One girl started playing a particular sport in year 7, and was now playing at national level. Our youngest was never into sport, in fact had terrible hand eye coordination, balance etc...when she switched from state primary and it’s one hour a week PE...to a very sporty prep with games & PE every single day, she absolutely came to love it all. It’s a shame that anyone would dismiss a ‘sporty‘ school, in the belief that their child isn’t interested in sport.

I think DC who don’t really like sport can still find sporty things to do. My DD1 wasn’t sporty but organised her house to win the Hakka competition on sports day. She’s still got less than great hand/eye Co ordination all these years later but trying a range of sports at school can be illuminating even if it just ends up being recreational. I think that’s what I meant about being inspired by a school. It’s looking at what goes on, what can be achieved and being enthused and encouraged to have a go.

I meant to say that the school my DDs went to was ultra sporty. National champions at one sport and very competitive at another. Lots of county level and national level competitors. But: we knew DDs were not going to be that good at sport but they filled their time with what they were good at. In y10, DD1 had 12 extra activities she was involved with and her HM had a chat with us about what DD could give up as she was doing 11 GCSEs as well. DD offered up one activity! We managed to get rid of one other but dc, in the right environment, really do expand their interests and I totally applaud it.

At our local state school, most children leave home at 8.30 and can be back for 3.30. Unless they want to do extra music/drama/revision classes so there are extra buses an hour later. These classes are free though you have to pay for the grade exams unless who can’t afford it.

OP private schools don’t always have the monopoly on facilities. At our state school there is a jazz band, full choir, chamber choirs and music studios for bands the students have formed themselves to practice. There is a 160 seat tiered theatre for major shows put on each year with a modern lighting/sound booth and an outside amphitheatre. There’s D of E, sports teams competitions etc etc. You have to pay for D of E but the rest is free and optional.

There’s supposedly no such thing as ‘soft’ or ‘hard’ subjects now for University - they are treated equally for admissions.

My Dd did training and got her black belt out of school (£5 a week). Dds have done various pool/studio sports and arts awards outside school. Usually a couple of pounds a week. To my mind these look more impressive than obligatory school activities on a CV.

I went to a school that cost my parents £10k a year a long time ago. The teachers were not qualified teachers (ex-army, ex-industry). Most had been to Oxbridge and a great deal of emphasis was placed on the Oxbridge college contacts. How does my school compare with my Dds education? My school’s facilities were ‘posher looking’ not better. The teaching was, on average, worse (I say this as a qualified teacher myself). The day was longer because we had obligatory rugby/hockey I did not enjoy and very long lunchtimes. But everything was ‘on a plate’. Parents could either have no contact with their children (boarding) or pick them up at 6.30pm which is great if you work full time and have a career. Both schools had/have drugs and pupils with problems. Although my Dd got the grades to get into Oxbridge there wasn’t the ‘push’ and the contacts my school had. This may have been a disadvantage had she liked Oxbridge but she didn’t.

Dh and I have often rearranged work to cart our Dds round and watch them swim/perform/fight etc etc and it does take a bit of planning. And I had less of a high flying career but more time with my children. I didn’t need to work as long hours as we aren’t paying for school. However extra money has gone into savings accounts for them so if they want get on the housing ladder they hopefully can. We are part of a local community (good and bad) and friends are local.

Our choice was easy except a bit of a nagging doubt, the first time, due to Dds friends’ parents pitying looks (who were proud to send their child to the private school). I think there was an expectation the ‘bright ones’ went private. Luckily it was in the days of going to the pub (!) so we all got drunk and wished each other well.

BUT we had the option of a good local comp.

This all is why I mentioned it’s a ‘lifestyle’ thing for the family as well as a school.

Our local state grammars have great facilities but I could take you to state schools with no choirs and nowhere near the facilities you mention. Not remotely close.

Looking at private schools in your day isn’t the same as being a discerning purchaser now. My DDs had longer days but they pursued what they were interested in. I don’t think a very average private school is worth it over a good comp or grammar but a top 40 one should be in many cases.

Few admissions officers for the most competitive subjects at the most competitive universities think all subjects are the same. They often list the subjects successful candidates offer and there are some that simply won’t appear on the lists in any quantity. Some subjects offer better prep and most people know that but there are choices to be made for subject no 3, but doing softer subjects for all 3 A levels limits opportunity and some state schools still don’t get this.

State schools like that must be few and far between...or perhaps it’s because our grammars are so poorly funded, it seems incredibly rare. Once very much favoured by the educated middle class around here...now becoming less so. Yes they have choirs and music ensembles too..but the kids that partake, are the ones who are already of a standard able enough and confident enough to join. It would be a different story for a child who might never have had the opportunity to try a particular instrument or skill before, or just didn’t have their interest sparked in a way that sometimes can. I would not like to think that my child’s future interests or potential passions, have to be formed by the time they turn 10, and knowing the opportunities that lie ahead to try so many new things, excites her, as much as it does me. As you say Bubbles; it is very much a lifestyle choice, rather than just a school choice.
Regarding A level choices, I also have to disagree that the ‘soft’ subjects don’t matter anymore. They certainly do. Particularly for the more competitive courses and universities. Our daughter chose 3 robust subjects, thankfully because they were subjects she most enjoyed; but generally, soft options were really discouraged, unless a child was struggling and needed to change. She’s in her 2nd year with a graduate trainee role secured. One of the gripes the interviewer specifically mentioned, when discussing previous candidates, was his disdain and surprise, for the number of students he was seeing who had Media and suchlike for A levels...he wasn’t complimentary at all! Not that I can comment on those either way, but it seems A level choice does indeed get noticed.

All your views are very practical . @Zandathepanda, what u have mentioned are also the dilemma that I got. Whether Ds would fancy Oxbridge as the private that he got does have a much better chance (average of 25 students per year vs 0 to 2 for his cath comp) to get in but it's too early to tell whether he would want to get into that 7 yrs later. The lower rate for comp is also probably not being pushed by school to get in or less contact etc but not necessarily mean bad scores! The money saved could help with housing in future .

OP I worked in avery good independent school ( GDST) and a very good Catholic school in Londin. Both for ten years. Obviously they were girls schools but my advice hands down is to go the local RC school.

The only really difference I observed is a lot more ( expensive) trips in the independent school. Also a narrower demographic in terms of social class. Both are intercultural. Both had excellent assemblies, pastoral care and parental input. The RC school had much more of a community sense, less competition amongst students and better grounds. I am nit catholic but had to respect the school ethos which if anything was very pleasant.

I really do feel that the expense the independent school was not worth it, in comparison. Both had great results, great extra curricular and committed teachers.

Agsin this is anecdotal but peer pressure and bullying was worse in the independent school. I observed the mental health if students in the RC school was better overall. I was offered a huge fee reduction to send my own daughter to the school ( independent) but we both agreed on a local catholic school where she thrived.
I know this is based on my experiences but as a teacher ones gets to see institutions from within.

I think if a school has 35 dc getting to Oxbridge it knows the time of day. It will also get many others to top universities.

At the comprehensive I would wonder how many could have gone but didn’t. Where else have dc gone? How ambitious were they?

RC is usually selective too of course. Some very much so and they may well have highly educated parents who push for dc even if the school doesn’t. You simply don’t know whether the school does everything it can. I don’t think Oxbridge necessarily is the most important factor but your dc would be working with like minded dc if that became an ambition. If not, the other first class universities might be in reach.

Posts like these really do highlight how different schools can be in different areas. Our local RC school is certainly not highly regarded in the same way, and most of the professional middle class demographic, wouldn’t consider it as a choice. It’s also strikingly less diverse, which seems to be increasingly the case when the middle class pool turn their backs on a school.

It sounds like OP has two great choices, so it’s hard to compare experiences from around here. Having said that, our grammar schools have a good reputation, they are just poorly funded. Ten years ago the girls school was pretty much dominated by the middle class tennis club set, and the school benefited from the generous financial support this brought; with parents happy to contribute, as it was seen as a free ‘private’ option, this has all been gradually changing..and with it, the intake that once required close catchment for a place, now extends far beyond catchment.
We tried to look at the school with fresh eyes every time, and as attractive as the financial benefits would have been, we just could not see our daughter there. It didn’t feel right. We tried to look beyond the cramped classrooms and tired walls..and feel the vigour and soul of the school, and although we did, it still wasn’t enough to persuade us otherwise. Short days are a bonus perhaps, but not if that means hanging out in the town after school, or coming home to slouch on their beds and play x-box for hours, which is what I tend to see with many of the teenagers with the luxury of being home by afternoon. It’s also interesting to see the choices being made by other parents in the school. I know a prep school will naturally have many private onward destinations, it was interesting to note that while pretty much all children in the upper sets sat the 11plus and passed, the very brightest children are not taking up grammar places, instead they are taking up scholarships or places at other prestigious independent schools.

You really need to look at how each school would fit your child and lifestyle.
Without inside information of the two schools in question nobody can realistically advise you on this. It is not about state v private, but rather school v school.
You probably know families who use both schools - do you 'fit' with those families in terms of lifestyle and aspirations etc? At the end of the day, if you really can't decide between them, let your child decide. You can always change if it doesn't work out. It's not a forever choice.
Good luck!

Nellydean we’re singing from the same hymnsheet - I have experience of both and have similar observations.

The big things once at secondary are to make sure you keep the family communication going when they become distant teenagers and create the right work environment at home. And keep an eye on the devil that is social media. All these things are applicable for whatever school you chose.

OP whichever way you decide you will have some element of doubt. However, you have that because you want to make the best decision for your child which is one of the best indicators that they will be successful in life anyway.

It’s actually making my stomach hurt laughing at the comments in regards to Private and state education. My self state educated, went to a normal comp, teachers was amazing and I ended up with straight A*. Then went on to earn three A levels at AAB, following my college studies I went on to graduate from Imperial college London. My salary now is in the 100K plus mark. Majority of my university friends went to private and said all you get in these schools who kids who parents can’t be asked to educate them so they take the easy route. Also, they mentioned private school is also very good for children who under perform because they can do more sport!! In state school you don’t get these options, if either study or you get left behind. My mum and dad read to me ever night, sat with me and invested money in educational resources, they also encouraged me to have a job young! The comment about how mainly private school mums probably read more etc is absolute rubbish and pure snobby!! Most parents at private don’t see the child and busy working to pay fees. Children need your time and love! Oh and when you look at the drug issues in private schools it will change your mind.