If you’re aiming for A/A* in maths Alevel is doing it in a year not a good idea?

[Untangl3d]

Ds has seen a double maths Alevel course with Maths in the first year than FM in the second. Uni courses he’s looking at want v high Maths Alevel grades. I’m thinking this option might not be a good idea as doing Maths in a year will lessen your chance of the highest grades.Thoughts?

@WhyCantIThinkOfAGoodOne

But even Cambridge states "STEP is a far better predictor of success in the Mathematical Tripos than A-levels." This isn't just about A levels and the grades this is about admissions tests too. That is why I suggested looking at the uni pages for the course to see what is required. I advised researching.

Lots of universities will only ask for single maths but 95% of the successful candidates will have two maths A-levels so you'll put yourself at a massive disadvantage if you don't take it

So why don't unis then just state FM as a requirement then for STEM if your school offers it? Why only state maths? It is this kind of fucking around that puts first generation children at a massive disadvantage.

@MontysOarlock

I have taught a STEM subject at Cambridge (while I was doing a postdoc I'm not and never was a full proffesor). STEP is a better predictor of success because it's much harder than A-levels. Every student who does well at STEP finds A-level maths and further maths a walk in the park. On a maths course at Cambridge or Oxford almost all students will have AA at maths and further maths (it's not unusual for a student to have only an A grade in one other subject but not maths) so of course it can't be used to predict success.

Doing further maths certainly won't guarantee you do well in STEP (and the actual material you'll need will only be A-level syllabus) but it will ensure you have better fluency with the basics and having done twice as much maths will undoubtably be an advantage for both STEP and MAT/PAT papers. Look at the stats - students who have taken further maths perform better at STEP. If you're even considering a STEM top university you should absolutely take further maths without question - you can certainly recover from not taking it but why put yourself at a disadvantage. The question is really only relevant for students who are more boarderline.

sorry that should read A A

We were told that unis can’t specify FM because not all schools offer it. But the subtext was very much, yes, you absolutely should do FM if you want to do a physical science at a high-ranking university.

What do you class as a maths based subject or a physical science?

What do you class as a maths based subject or a physical science?confused

Dd was looking at physics, or possibly engineering in some form. 6th form staff were emphatic about the importance of doing FM A level for those kinds of degrees.

Her friend who wants to study chemistry at degree level was told that single maths was fine for that.

Ds wants to do engineering. Was thinking of doing maths, physics and chemistry. He prefers chemistry to FM and we’re not keen on him doing 4. His 6th form didn’t say FM was crucial for engineering.If he had to choose between the two he’d pick chemistry. He’s good at maths but not obsessed with it which we have been told is necessary to do 2 maths Alevels. Getting 3 very good Alevels seems more important and we understand that A level chemistry is hard.

For engineering, maths and physics are the crucial subjects.

FM is 'desirable' or 'highly' desirable at the top ones - for the reasons discussed in terms of it being harder if you don't have it if you have to learn the content more quickly when you arrive at uni rather than being taught. In terms of getting an offer it's probably only the very top ones where you're unlikely to get an offer without it if you've got good predicted grades and the third is eg chemistry or CS.

These threads tend to end up discussing oxbridge and imperial but we are fortunate in the U.K. to have many unis offering good solid engineering degrees with a range of entry requirements. If your DS is expecting an 8 rather than a 9 for maths at GCSE then the probability is that he'll be looking more in this range - Southampton, other redbricks, Loughborough for instance.

And yes, the grades matter - the 'second tier' may be asking for an A* in maths or physics plus 2 As, or at least 3 As.

You've said he doesn't want to do 4 - if it's possible it might be wise to start 4 and plan to drop one.

Argh started another thread with more detail. Could you give me more detail re the second tier.

Where do Bristol and Sheffield fit in.? Think he’ll be an 8 type GCSE kid( with very little effort). Capable of a 9 but he’s a daydreamer. Top maths set of a grammar but probably more a set 2 type in reality.

And... sorry, keep thinking of things ... bear in mind 'engineering' covers a broad range of fields. My DD is a 3rd year doing general engineering at Cambridge so has had a bit of everything except chemical. That obviously usually requires chemistry. Chemistry might also be helpful (even if not required ) for materials engineering. OTOH, some of the other branches are more 'hard maths' heavy - I think some of electronics, thermofluids (aero) , some of the 'info' engineering . Some areas coding is relevant (not requiring formal CS qualification) ... doing 3 subjects and having time to spend doing a bit of coding or practical skills may also make life a bit easier at uni. (An EPQ doing something relevant may be an idea alongside 3 A levels - not a requirement, unlikely to get grade reduction at most places, just an extra possibility)

Sorry all over the place, quite interested in robotics. Is doing CS GCSE. Finds coding easy but not keen on the theory.

Really don’t know what to advise, this isn’t my area at all.

Seems a shame to give up chemistry if he enjoys it and is good at it but it will be bloody hard work and may not be much use worth giving up applications for Imperial but then maybe he isn’t the Imperial type. There is more detail re his profile on the other thread- he’s scatty, daydreams but good at working engineering type things out, naturally good at physics.

Cross post...
DD was in the second maths set at a grammar but did gcse FM and aced it... some kids get the bit between their teeth and do better than predicted in the end!
But that did mean she looked at a good spread of unis
So, my info is a few years old but broadly the ones DD looked at - all for EEE except Cambridge- were in rough order (no London ones because London...)
Manchester, Southampton, Bristol
Sheffield
Nottingham, Birmingham, Surrey, Newcastle
Loughborough

If he is really good at chemistry (and also maths and physics) he may not find A level as bloody hard as other people (DH and I are chemists)

And while FM definitely is useful, he should be able to get an offer at a good uni with chemistry instead.
Look at the requirements on the uni web pages. It's easy to find what they're all actually asking for.

He started doing FM at gcse but was advised to drop it as it was potentially risking an 8/9 in maths. Did the whole course but they suggested stopping it just before Easter so he and a few others could focus on Maths in run up to GCSEs. Was annoyed with him at the time as he could have aced both if he’d worked hard.Obviously gcse results are going to be different this year.Will be harder to gauge the maths/ fm Alevel thing. I think he thinks all that maths will be boring. He likes maths but 2/3 of his studies along with all the maths in physics might be pushing it.He knows he’s got to change his attitude though and has been working at Alevels during lockdown. Maybe we should go with his personality and fit the course round him. Annoying though that immaturity is shutting doors. I’m worried he’ll regret not going for 4 or the FM option.

What do you class as a maths based subject or a physical science?

Definitely physics, maths, computer science. Engineering is very mathematical too but less so than the other three so possibly more forgiving. If he wants to do Chemistry or biology then FM won't be at all necessary - even at a very top university. It might look good but he should only bother if he thinks he'll enjoy the course and work hard enough to get top grades.

I guess it depends why he finds maths boring. I've done tutoring of high school students before and met some who were simply bored because it was too easy. Others just prefer more practical approaches and don't like the more abstract reasoning involved in pure maths - especially students who went on to do Engineering.

I think it was more the thought of 2x maths Alevels with very maths heavy physics. Don’t think he finds maths boring, likes it but he’s not the type that adores it and would do it for pleasure iykwim. He’s more into physics. Has enjoyed chemistry. Says he thinks he’ll work harder at Alevels because they will be subjects he enjoys.

It’s really hard to decide. Thinking the 4 would be a safe bet but it could be a disaster and 4 is more suited to naturally very disciplined kids which some of his friends are. I’ve seen the difference.😂