11+ from selective school that doesn't prep

[JulesS81]

Does anyone have any experience of doing the 11+ for the top selective London day schools (SPJ, KCS etc) from a school that doesn't prep?

DS is at a London day school that goes through to 18 but we, due to personal reasons (e.g. moving house and wanting better sports provision), we are thinking of moving him on at 11. The school he is at is also super selective and, give or take, is considered to be in the same league as the 'target' schools academically, so I think he will have been taught to a broadly equivalent level. However, the school doesn't prepare the children for 11+ as the vast majority of kids move to the senior school.

We haven't been through the 11+ before so can only compare it to the 7+ (which was time consuming but not particularly stressful, at least in so far as DS was concerned). It is difficult to talk to other people at the school or the school itself because, if it doesn't work out, DS will stay put hence me asking for guidance here. Will it involve vast amounts of extra tutoring/work?

DS is doing just fine as it stands. Enjoying his time and neither struggling nor excelling academically.

This may be more common in the girls schools in London. My DD was In the junior school at Putney High and there were plenty of parents who felt the secondary school wasn’t good enough (they wanted St Paul’s or LEH). Anyway the school did nothing to assist the 11+ process and the parents had to arrange all the tutoring privately. Some were successful but not all.

Thanks Jeanne. This is indeed a broadly similar situation.

I don't really have any sense as to how much additional work would be required. I hear so many horror stories about the 11+ that I wonder if we are mad to even consider doing it 'voluntarily'!

I imagine your DS will have covered enough academically for the 11+ but practise papers would be great for him to do so he is familiar with the type of questions. This will also speed him up

It totally depends on the child. If your son is absolutely excelling in his current school I would get a good targeted tutor once a week and that (plus the exam Prep the tutor sets) should be enough. If he is doing reasonably well only, I suspect a lot more practice would be required to help him excel in the exam. The competition at 11+ is quite something but knowing he can stay where he is will take away a lot of the pressure at least!

I think you'd have to prepare - your junior school will not be doing any of the VR /NVR/timed essay/exam technique stuff that's so important at 11+?

Thanks all - for those (sensibly) recommending extra work, are we talking 3 months extra prep? 6 months? 9 months!!? Appreciate it depends on the child so just looking for context really

Most children are probably prepped for a year. Some are prepped for several years and some for a few months.

Start by looking at some sample papers for the schools you're interested in. You should have an idea of what your DC could manage or not manage on them. Even if current school don't prep, I would arrange a meeting with Head or Head of Year to discuss your thoughts and see if the school you plan for is realistic.

3 months would be very much at the shorter end of prepping.

You can do it yourself or use a tutor. Lots of parents home prep successfully.

If your DC is very clever, then it will be long enough as time for familiarisation of VR and NVR and practice of exam timings etc. However, most children will need more.

How galling to be paying for prep....and then not being prepped! It's quite common with through-schools though, but it's hard at 4 or 7 to know what will suit your DC at 11 or 13, which is why I've never been keen on the all-through, personally.

Lots of people start tutoring the day after the previous year's entrance exams - that's when the spaces become available. However, they are on the waiting lists before that of course.

If you want to home prep, the key is to be very clear about the format of the exam and get the right resources. Most schools use either CEM or GL for reasoning tests and write their own maths and English papers.

As WombatChocolate says (and her advice is always good!), the key thing is to know the type of exam you’re preparing for. Is it just maths and english (in which case just usual exam technique stuff and revision of any weaker areas should be fine) or does it include VR/NVR (where you’ll need to do some proper practice, as the school presumably doesn’t cover it).

My experience (last year’s 11+ from a state primary) was that it was mainly exam technique that we had to add - plus some maths her primary hadn’t covered (but that won’t be an issue for you). It took about a year, doing roughly an hour a week. But it did take quite a lot of my time in researching past papers, finding appropriate workbooks for those skills, identifying weak spots and only when all that was done going for timed past papers.

My view is that if your DC is in the top 10 per cent at the current school, three months of prep on the target exam is sufficient. If you are further down the answer is ˋit depends‘

The one school I can think of that's in the same league as KCS/StP DS is WUS. WUS definitely prepares you for the 11/13+ and so I would not be worried at all about future schools. I have found 11+ to be much more tiring than 7+ and so definitely don't recommend it !!

Apologies for being vague - I don’t want to out myself. He isn’t at WUS and they definitely don’t do 11+ prep but his school is highly selective and gets academic results that are within a few percentage points of the target schools (slightly below to be fair).

The sense I get from various people on here (and more generally) is that doing the 11+ would be perfectly feasible notwithstanding the lack of school prep. We would still need to do plenty of prep particularly around exam technique notwithstanding the fact he is at an academic school. Thinking aloud, we would probably end up packing him off to the local tutor school. Again. Poor boy!!!

The question is whether we really have the motivation to put him through it all when we have a very good back up option. Just signing him up for the exams and sending him along unprepared would be totally pointless.

I can well imagine him complaining about having to do extra work. It was pretty easy at 7+ as he wasn’t really aware what was going on but no doubt at 11+ he will be wondering why he is having to do extra weekend work when his mates are all relaxing!

The schools you apply for will ask for a reference from your current school btw. You may want to find out at what point in the process it is requested.

Do you have particular schools yoi want to target? Are they grammar schools or other (slightly more academic) independents?

Whatever your reason for wanting to move at 11+, it will require prep adjusted to the type of test your particular target schools do. I don't think there's much harm in trying if you have a good fall back option. Worst case scenario your son will be very well prepped and ahead of others in his school start year 6.

To be honest, we are a little unhappy about how urban the current school is - it really is a concrete jungle. We would like him to go to school somewhere where there is greenery and sports fields! Difficult to achieve in London of course, and doubly so if you also want top tier academics. DH and I both went to out of town prep schools so we struggle with DS being in such an urban environment from such a young age!

That being said, we do like the school which works hard at the extra curricular things. There is a slight difference in academics between the current school and the target schools but certainly not enough to justify a move by itself.

A few children do seem to move on at the 11+ stage each year so I’m not unduly concerned about the school finding out. Moving on is a fact of life. I just feel nervous about committing to a full 11+ exam process!

The 11+ process isn’t fun for anyone. The through schools sell themselves as avoiding it and make it harder to leave by not prepping or not doing it rigorously like genuine preps that are prepping for a range of seniors.

However, if you really want the other school, I’d do it, rather than settle for what might always feel second best and lead to regret. It depends how much you’d prefer the alternative.

It is always hard to be the family not doing what most are - so leaving when most are staying, or not moving onto the linked school if most are. Lots of people find a through school sounds great but feel confined by it at points because 3-18 or 5-18 or 7-18 is a long time and children and families change, and schools change too.

Your DC maybe the type to fight against the prep necessary, esp if he wants to stay with his friends. A tutor will probably give at least an hours homework and probably 2 hours. If he won’t do it, or you can’t face it, it won’t really be worth it. The top schools are very over subscribed and will have kids sitting who are clever, well taught and well prepped for the exam. I think you either go for it whole heartedly (and much bette if DS buys into it) or don’t bother if you’ve got a decent school already.

But you sound a bit disillusioned so it probably is time to look elsewhere.

We were in a similar position to this- DS at a very good selective school that goes 3-18. He sat the tests in Y6 for two top London day schools (won’t mention the names but you can guess) for entry at 13 and had offers from both. However, in the end he decided to stay where he was.

In terms of prep, he had a few sessions with a tutor for exam technique but nothing substantive. I would say find a tutor who knows the schools you are interested in and can prepare for those specific tests. There was no issue at all about curriculum etc- he had covered everything required. Also the sort of schools in question try hard to test intelligence rather than preparation so tend to devise exams which test the ability to think rather than knowledge of a particular curriculum (eg in one of his interviews he was asked to discuss variations on the trolley problem and how we weigh the value of a human life- not something we could have prepared for!)

Have you spoken to his current school? I was really worried about doing this but when I did it was incredibly helpful and they were lovely about it all and gave great advice (although they were obviously even lovelier when I told them he was staying after all!)

PS having your current school place in the bag takes a lot of the stress out of 11+. If he does well, he has options. If not, he still has a place at a great school.

Good point about stress being removed if you already have a place in the bag. Having said that, I've heard of some Preps which give an early offer to the linked Senior, but only on the basis it is accepted at some point in Yr5 - if children apply to others, they say it is revoked. Seems a bit awful. Whether they genuinely withdraw it or insisit that child sits the entrance test if they later want a place, I don't know.

I guess PP had the benefit of knowing they had a genuine choice, as they sat for others, got offers and then chose to stay with original. There was no 'what if...' in the same way there might have been if they hadn't tried.

We were in a similar position with DD. It would have been impossible for us if DD hadn’t wanted the move. She was motivated to do the prep with our support but also did a lot on her own, no tutor.

We were looking at grammars and one other independent. About 40% were sitting tests for local grammars so asking for the time off for the tests wasn’t too challenging. It was slightly awkward asking the school for a reference which is what the Indy wanted and we were called into the headmistress office like naughty children and asked why we were even considering taking their star pupil away. It was uncomfortable.

She moved to the local ss grammar having all the doors to all the other options open but definitely the right choice for DD. Some others also moved, some used the results st other schools as attempted leverage for scholarships.

I suspect you won’t be on your own In considering a move, but some parents may shun you when your decision is incorrectly seen as a criticism of the school they are staying invested in, they won’t appreciate it about fit for different DSs.

Would imagine many London parents in those circumstances would pay a tutor and/or tutor themselves.

We were in the same position. You absolutely have to know the standard of your target school and where your dc is at now and be prepared to invest a lot of time in it, either yourself and/or with a tutor. Importantly, our dc also knew we wanted to switch schools and understood why but the early days of extra work was painful.

Take her to a tutor at the start of year 4 for an honest assessment and then start one hour a week tutoring at some point in Y4. good that you have the backup of staying so you don't have to go crazy.