Choice between grammar and good local school

[TooLaidBack27]

Not sure if I in the right topic, but here it goes. DC is in Y5, bright, top of the class child. Going to a private tutor 1h per week. We do not have 'excellent' secondaries around us, just few 'good' ones. Studious children from our area (SE London) go to Bexley or Kent grammar schools, but that entails 40mins- 1.5 hours travel to/from school. I am starting to think that that will be hard on my DC and it is better to go to a 'good' local, where they meet and make local friends, rather than classmates, who live far away?
What are everyones' thoughts on that?

The good local.

I'd say grammar. Probably better exam results and teaching overall and well behaved peers. My son is in private we tried for grammar but were unsuccessful at the entrance exam, so we continued from prep to senior school on full fees. We have experienced a little of what you have said regarding friendships, its definitely going to have an impact but it's not impossible, to arrange meet ups and talk over the phone, after school activities, and trips with the school itself overseas etc. I think as well you can make friends throughout life but you only get one shot at your education. But its not my opinion.

just my opinion I meant to say sorry.

It's a bit different for us because our local option was poor - but DD is doing a 45 min commute to grammar. She doesn't love the commute but she is so happy at school that it is worthwhile. She's very happy socially too - when they can't meet up in person, they whatsapp! In fact, she's much happier socially than she was at primary school.

I guess it depends on where you think your child will be happiest. Have you visited the schools you're interested in? That might help you get a feel for it.

I said state because mine went to the local comprehensive. The eldest both came out with all A grades at gcses and A levels and the youngest are following in their footsteps with all grade 8s and 9s in mock exams. They have some issues with behaviour from other students but any school has that. There are good state schools out there despite the budget cuts, theirs isn't on any of the best schools in the country lists or anything like that, it's a bog standard school but with excellent management and teachers.

Why do they need a tutor if they are as bright as you say? I would go for a good l8cal secondary school every time.

Visit the schools and talk to D.C. about what they want to do. They need to be motivated to do the exams and the journey. There’s also a big difference between a 40 minute journey and 1.5 hours. 40 minutes isn’t unusual in London (DS does this to comp to allow bus waiting time, traffic etc). Also how easy is the journey and are there back up options if one train line has delays? Are you in a bit of SE London where grammar applications are common i.e. most bright kids do them or in a bit where journey is more of a stretch so fewer do it?

Yes big difference between 40 mins and 1.5 hours.

What have the local school said about how they stretch the most academically able kids?

@bws83 Where is your evidence that teaching at grammars is better than comprehensives?! And obviously exam results will be better because there’s an entrance exam to make sure they only take kids who are likely to get top results. I’ve worked in both grammar and comprehensive - one grammar was outstanding in every sense of the word and really looked after its pupils (which is partly why the results were so good as they took the view that if the students were well and happy and flourishing personally they were more likely to do well). Behaviour was generally very good. Another was ofsted outstanding but I wouldn’t have touched it with a barge pole for my kids - they only cared about data and the school’s position in league tables, and there were a lot of miserable kids. Behaviour was not good. The comprehensive had, in my view, better teachers than the second grammar and a lot more student support and more able students did extremely well.

OP, visit the schools - you and your child will probably get a gut feeling of where they’ll be happiest. There’s no point being at the school with the best results in the world if you’re miserable, and there’s no point having a short commute if you’re unhappy either. Go with your gut.

We’ve gone for the grammar and selective independent (with bursary) options for our two (now year 9 and 11) over local schools, but all three nearest comprehensives are bottom of the league tables/ below average progress.

Socially it’s been great for both of them, they fit in, have friends, no social issues etc ( and ds was bullied at primary.) Ds has a long journey though, well over an hour as it’s two buses and there’s waiting time. He could have a shorter journey if he went by tram and train, and did last year, but he prefers bus with friends.

The journey is very hard at this time of the year - Nov/Dec/Jan feel very gruelling and I tend to question our decision! Ds gets very tired. The rest of the year it’s generally ok.

They both meet up with friends in town. Dd is much more social though - with ds there’s a lot of online gaming socialising so it doesn’t matter where they live! Dd has had quite a lot of sleepovers over the years. They also both have local friends from outside school.

I’m sure they’d have done fine at local schools - well, certainly dd, not sure about ds as he’s lazy and easily led. I doubt dd would get as many 8s and 9s elsewhere looking at local results but it probably wouldn’t matter long term. However they’re both very happy. We also don’t worry at all about their education whereas I hear about kids at local schools having tutors because the teaching isn’t good/they’re having lots of supply teachers etc. I think the staff tend to be pretty stable at grammars.

We are lucky in that our Grammars are close by. However DS and DD quite envied their friends who got the school bus in as they seemed to have a lot of fun.

I'd go for the right school for your child. If they're happy at school the commute or lack of is less important.

Choose the school dependent on the best fit for your child. If they don’t cope well with travel and longer days that will be a factor. 40mins isn’t long for a journey to school for most DCs.

DD is at a grammar just over a mile away, but some of her friends travel for an hour. She has really found her tribe of like minded friends (but otherwise very diverse) and that has been amazing to see.

I know people who have turned down the grammar as they felt it was too far and chose a comprehensive but that was often as it was on their doorstep or a short walk away and they also had other DC to consider.

Curious to know why your child is being tutored?
In terms of the commute - DS2's journey to his state secondary school is about 45 minutes anyway. (10 minute lift to the station, 15 minute train journey, 20 minute walk) - so I wouldn't see that as a major problem.
See if you child passes the 11+ then you can keep your options open.

I would opt for the quality of life every time and go for the good local, plus tutoring if he needs it. School is more than just results and that extra 1.5 hours could be spent on clubs, hobbies, sports and other activities. Plus, it means he won't be knackered from travelling when the workload begins to bite for GCSEs.

We chose the grammar, an hour door to door via bus, over the local outstanding comprehensive a 5 min walk away. (It is a true comp as there are no grammars in our county). 95%+ of local kids go to the comp, only 1 or 2 every year from the primary go to the grammar.

I think they would have done well which ever they chose, so in the end I let them have the final decision. We looked around both schools and spoke to people who had kids at both. I felt my kids had to be involved in the decision as if they chose the grammar then they had to be happy with the extra time spent on the bus, not being with their friends etc.

At the grammar they are out of the house 7.30 - 5. Had they gone to the local school it would have been 8.20 -3 three days a week and 8.20 - 4 the other 2 days. So they lose over 10 hours a week at home due to the school they chose. But getting the bus and going to a different town has been great for their independence.

The grammar has a huge catchment so the student population is way more diverse in terms of race, religion, home languages etc which has been great for learning a bit more about the world compared to our very small world town.

My eldest has particularly found her own tribe at the grammar, it's given her the confidence to be the geek that she is, which I'm not sure would have been so easy at the comp. There are far more like minded souls.

I'd also say the facilities in terms of sports, music, science etc are far better at the grammar and they offer more extra curricular activities than the comp but that could just be down to the individual schools rather than grammar Vs comp.

I would visit all schools you could realistically send your DC to (I think 1.5 hour commute is too far though, maybe just go for nearer ones) and really make the DC involved in the process as if they really want to go with their friends to the local comp, going through the whole 11+ process might be a waste of time. They need to want to put the work in to get to the grammar. You can't do it for them.

My oldest dc sounds v similar and we have a similar decision to make.

I am very much leaning towards the good local comp for several reasons -

Time at home, with siblings and as a family. The grammar will involve being at home very little during the working week. Her siblings will be home 2 hours before her and may eat without her. This sounds against my general aims for our family especially as adolescence hits and she will spend much less time with us and at home at the weekends too.

Extracurricular clubs and sport. our DD is an enthusiastic person who wants to try lots of stuff and joins in a lot. She also competes in sport for a local team. Going to a school with longer hours may mean she misses practice sessions for her local sport and I'm concerned as to how I would facilitate her inevitable wish to take part in lots of extra stuff at a school 45mins away without her siblings having to spend hours in the car collecting her. At the good local comp she can take advantage of all opportunities as she wishes as it is a 10 minute drive to collect her if needed.

Friendships I want DD to have friends from school she can socialise with and visit at weekends and holidays. The grammar takes from such a wide rural area that parental input would most certainly be needed. At the local comp she could make arrangements and use public transport and become more independent as I would hope for as a teen.

Emotional well being I haven't heard great things about the level of pressure they're under at the grammar and how some of the dc don't cope well. My DD is a typical high achiever who wants to do well. She puts enough pressure on herself without any external additions and I think she has the capacity to get v stressed. She also finds 'cool' girls v hard to manage and has been made v unhappy by some dc in the past. The thought of her having long bus journeys and being far away whilst being made miserable is awful. If she is closer to home I will feel more able to see how she is emotionally and help support her if necessary.

Add all this to the fact that I'm dubious about the unfairness of selective education in general (all the above comments about better facilities, teaching and opportunities for children who are undoubtedly already more fortunate make me uneasy). Plus a couple of teacher friends feel that the teaching in the local comps is more innovative, engaging and inspiring because it has to be..

My dc have engaged and interested, supportive parents. They will do well wherever they go because we will encourage that to happen. There are too many downsides and not enough upsides to make me keen to go down he grammar route.

That said, if dc are keen I will support their choice and shut up!

I had a long commute to school as a child because my parents thought the private school was so much better than our good local comp.

I was permanently tired, couldn't do out of school activities because of the difficulties of getting home and not wanting to cut into an already short evening, and couldn't see my friends out of school. I might have got good results but I was miserable.

My DC are going to the local comp. Going to the grammar in the next county (which many local children do) would have instantly taken another 1.5 hours out of every day. I think there's better ways they can spend that time.

We had a similar choice but the grammar schools are in nearby towns with haphazard transport, particularly if they miss the school bus (if they oversleep in the morning, have after school activities etc) which would have big knock on effects on needing to get them to/from school. We also had the choice of several somprehensives in the town we live, although luckily our three closest are all excellent.

We went for local - and really don’t regret it, particularly having spoken to other dc/parents who chose grammar schools. Ds1 in particular is involved in lots of teams and clubs, so not having to travel to get him is great - doing it in the other direction would have seriously impacted the family if he did everything or he would have had to not do stuff. Academically he is doing well and he is also getting lots of opportunities to take part in ‘stuff’ where they need a handful of kids to do things - local competitions, workshops, tournaments etc which he might not have done to the same degree if the entire year was comprised of nice bright kids!

Ds2 is dyslexic but bright - so I don’t know if he would have passed the grammar school entrance exams. He’s also not as confident as ds1 so I would worry about him much more needing to travel between towns. But he has been able to go to the same school as his brother, where he is also thriving and able to benefit from a fab senco team supporting him.

As you’ve probably guessed - I would definitely vote for local good school every time!

Have you visited the schools yet? What does your child think? Also, maybe do the journey a couple of times to see how they feel - especially in the winter.

I had same dilemma as you OP (and you clearly live in roughly same area as us).

Good local school has worked well for us. DDs very happy and DD1 did exceptionally well in her GCSEs (8s and 9s).

I forgot to say, DD1 went to revision classes almost every day after school in y11, which would have been very difficult with a long journey. I swear one of her keys to success was having a 10-minute journey. (So not wasting time).

Good local, but there's no harm in asking your dc to see whether they would want to try for the grammar. Let them have input.

My bright, studious child who probably lives in a similar area to you, goes to an excellent local school. She too was top of the class in Y5 but had no tutoring at all and secured a guaranteed grammar place. She turned it down in favour of a place at a local comprehensive.

She's in Y10 now, is thriving, has 'found her tribe' of equally studious, bright, sporty, musical friends and they are all within walking distance of their school. It hasn't been hard for her to find others who have a good work ethic, there's no shame in doing well or being a geek and the intake of the school represents the local population. The only downside for her so far has been that the school stayed open when it snowed

It totally depends on your DC's personality but personally with a bright child I would send them to the closest good school and save the money you would have spent on travel to grammar and spend it on opportunities outside of school

I invigilate out of county Kent test days, it is a lot of pressure, some kids are fine and take it in their stride but some really find it scary and fall to bits, I also tutor and a lot of the children I tutor are bright kids who were top of their primary class with tutoring from year 4 or 5, got into grammar and then their parents dropped the tutoring coz they are at grammar now and they fell behind very quickly, which is when they come to me, it's why I refuse to tutor 11+ these days (I did, because its good money and I had a very good reputation, but then I saw what struggling at grammar can do to their confidence and felt bad for pushing kids to get into a school that didn't suit them) I'm not saying that will definitely happen to your DC but I think it is worth thinking about especially as DC will have a lot of travelling time and lots of homework so adding tutoring on will leave very little free time.

Look simply at the school, not whether it’s grammar, comprehensive or, not relevant here, but independent. How does it suit your child?

We have the “choice” of two grammars where we live. One we adore and the other had a really off-putting vibe. So much so I haven’t even applied to it despite DD passing the 11+.

Our choices are first - independent school, second - all girls grammar school, third - toss up between another independent or our local comp.

All schools are wildly different. I can see huge differences between our local comp and the grammar but less so versus the third choice independent. What I can see is where my daughter will be most at home and thrive.

Your gut reaction is usually the right one.