The Grammar School Hassle - is it worth it?

[Neim]

DS (current Y5) came in from playing out over the summer holidays and said his friend was going to Grammar school in Y7 and he wanted to go as well.

Living in a Grammar area I knew there were 2 that were close enough to be acceptable distance but hadn’t given it much thought other than knowing it was an option if he was put in for the test and passed. He’s never been much into school so I didn’t think it was worth putting him through the stress and the hassle if he wasn’t up to it.
So I gave it some thought and decided ok, if he wants to give it a go, then why not?

After a conversation of you’ll have to do all your homework, read every night before bed, keep up with your times tables and do practice papers and preparation, it won’t be easy etc etc, we got sorted out a plan and he was really up for it.

I took him to the Y6 open evenings (even though he’s Y5) for all the schools (comprehensives and grammars) back in September. He was still certain that Grammar was what he wanted.

The plan went well for a few weeks and the need to work hard seemed to be reinforced by visiting the grammar schools but just before half term he decided “I’m not doing my homework if I have to do all this practice” he had a point at the time, it was making a model and had no relevance to the 11+. So I let him off for that week and helped him make half an attempt at it.

Since then things seem to have gone from a one off to a “this is too much”, “I can’t do this”, “it’s too hard” and he’s lost all interest in doing any type of school work or 11+ prep.

We have had the conversations of if you don’t do the test you can’t go to grammar school and other schools are just as good. However, he is convinced he wants to go to grammar school.

I don’t mind whether he goes to grammar school or not. I never expected him to anyways. Don’t get me wrong, I have high aspirations for him, but they were never academic because he has never shown those types of interests and is very practically minded.

What worries me is that he has lost all interest in school work altogether. Should I bother trying to make him see sense and get him to work for it? Do I give up and let him enjoy what he has left of school and encourage his interest in school work again? Am I doing the wrong thing even letting him attempt the 11+ when he’s lost interest?

Does anyone have any similar experience?
Should I bother continuing?
Should I give up completely?
Should I just let him do the 11+ with the preparation we have done already and what ever happens thats the end of it?
Is all of this even worth it?

I’m very confused and worried about doing the wrong thing whilst trying to do the right thing.

It really depends on the school/area and how competitive the grammars are plus how capable your DS is. In some areas children are tutored from Y3 for the 11 plus so competition for places is stiff. If he's not sitting exam until next year, ease off for a bit and then see whether he's prepared to start work again say after Christmas. My DS only really started working for 11 plus in Jan before he sat it and passed.

I would say though that the pace at grammar is fast and he gets far more homework than his brother not at a grammar. If your DS not likely to enjoy doing a few hours homework most nights, grammar school may not suit him.

I second what ZoomZoom says.

How much work have you given him? Does he have time to relax and play? It’s all about finding the right balance. And also the attitude of the activities being fun in themselves rather than ‘you must do it if you want to sit the grammar exam’.

I know the grammar schools are competitive but unlike some areas of the country I wouldn’t have said they were super competitive. We already know the mark he needs to aim for to be considered for a place. It’s high but he is capable of achieving it if he works for it.

Although I say he’s not academic, I just mean he has the capability to be but he’s never really bothered, always liked tinkering with things (and breaking things so he can “learn how it works”). When something has his interest he can learn everything about it. He can be quite intelligent if he wants to be. It’s why the grammar school interest surprised me a bit, I thought he would go down the practical/technical route.

But I don’t want to squash his dreams of grammar school over arguments about 1 exam.

I honestly didn’t think I was pushing too hard. I’ve heard stories of other parents doing a couple of hours a night!
I was thinking 3 half hours a week (what we were doing) and upping it January was about right, not too much but definitely a start. Maybe I have started with too much for him? Your right ZoomZoomBoom, maybe a break from it is what he needs?

3.5h a week isn’t that much.

If his learning style is more hands on, perhaps it’s a case of finding/making resources to suit him better. Sitting down, circling answers might bore him to death quickly.

I’ve tried to make it as fun and interesting as possible. However, my interesting and his interesting are too completely different things. Your right @JoJoSM2, he needs more hands on. This seems to have escaped me but makes so much sense now it’s been said. I need some practical stuff in what we’re doing. This could really help him and interest him. I have no idea how this has totally escaped me!? Thank you!!

I was considering getting a tutor nearer the time (early next year) as we can’t afford one for the whole year. Me and DH can do as much as possible with him but neither of us have been to grammar school (closest DH got was failing the test (he got no tutoring/preparation) and I grew up in an area with no grammar schools so didn’t have the opportunity) so it’s mostly new to us both but we are trying our best for him. I do agree he would see it as more important if there was someone else teaching him.

I understand your point TwoRedShoes, but surely removing all of the homework is counter productive? I get that certain subjects can be pointless and I have been lenient on those but the English and the Maths work I see as very important to be doing. Surely what he learns from those will contribute towards his understanding of 11+ work as well? I know they are slightly different questions but it’s all practice at the end of the day. Maybe I’m wrong?

My daughter was expected to pass her 11 plus and did pass - but after a year of the pressure of a grammar we pulled her out and she is much happier in a less pressured environment. You don't need to decide anything now - as others have said give him another chance to study after Christmas. If I had two children is two different grammar schools - the reality is if he is not prepared to do homework - grammar is not for him. There were times in my daughter's first year in grammar that I had wished we had never put her into the school as it was damaging for her confidence. Being in a grammar is not for everyone.

I have 2 boys at grammar.

We didn't tutor, we did mock exams the summer before the exam and I did past papers with them in the run up to the exam.

They both got in with high marks and love it.

However, I think if you feel you have to tutor your child for a year or so and that tutoring is at the expense of other things then I would say maybe the grammar school isn't right. I would much rather my child was happy in a non grammar than struggling from the word go in a grammar.

Good luck with whatever you decide. Maybe give it a go without tutoring and do some mock exams and past papers in the run up to the exam? If he gets in then great and if not then maybe it's not the right school for him.

It all depends on the school/child/other schools. DD just passed and will go and the school definitely suits her but there is no way DS is going through it the closest school will suit him

It sounds like the 3 x a week prep is too kich for him on top of everything else. Can you just do a 10min test or sit and do something for an hour once a week to begin with?

If he’s Year 5 and you give up now then a lot of it is likely to be forgotten by the time the test (September here in Kent) comes round. I’d personally put it to the side now if the local State schools are decent and he is likely to get in and then take a view on it at Easter and either pay for a Tutor or use online Tutoring. It sounds like it’s descending into a negative place at the moment.

If he’s already in a negative mindset about the work then I would not get him a tutor.

DD sat (and passed) the grammar 11+ this year and wasn’t tutored. We got the 10 minute tests books and she was self motivated to do about one a day through Y5 off her own back. In the summer holidays she did some full length papers and that was it. School said she was GS material but also we were exceptionally brave to not tutor because everyone else is. I wanted to be sure that she would cope at a grammar school - she clearly would based on this. To be fair we have a great comp and the option of private so maybe I would feel differently if the alternatives weren’t great.

What I would say though is that those children who should have passed did, and those who were middle sets and heavily tutored did not. It actually restored my faith in the system somewhat.

One heavily tutored child lost the plot the week of the exam and was so stressed out his parents refused to let him sit the test. Another, tutored from Y4 and was doing 3 hours a day in the summer holidays (and they didn’t go away), didn’t make the grade and are now blaming the tutor for over tutoring her.

I guess what I am saying is it could be worth the hassle if your child really is grammar material. But he needs to be on board, motivated and happy to put the work in on familiarisation with the question types, speed and exam technique. If you can all commit to that then you really don’t need endless hours of tutoring.

DS did the 11plus this September and passed well. We did about 2hrs a week from about 10 months before. He is of high ability and did the extra work without much grumbling. As well as being bright, he could cope with the extra work, which I thought was a good sign that he can keep up the pace at grammar, and he would fit in well.

My DD is sitting it next year, and I'd say she is not the highest in ability at school (august born), although the 11plus is age standardised, and I do worry about her being able to keep up at grammar. We have started doing work towards it and she is keen to do it. We will keep on going till she is enjoying it still. I think the work involved is very benefial to the school curriculum anyway (her teacher said that she has really improved in all areas recently...is nearly exceeding), so I don't mind doing it as it will be good for her.

So I do think it's worth it, as long as it's not too stressful. depending on the type of exam your area does, it improves their work at school too.

So, at the end of the day it doesn't matter.

I went to a grammar - passed my exams. But then dropped out in A Levels never went to uni and worked immediately. Granted it's taken me a long time to get to where I am but I would have been pretty much at the same point in my life now (30 yrs) with uni or not.

My SIL went to a comp (it was awful though) and she worked her butt off, took exams, apprenticeships, uni and is now a senior cardiovascular doctor.

You and your DS decide whats best and what will make him happy in the long run. Work around his aspirations and work ethic and he can succeed where ever he is!

My daughter started a Grammar school this year, she took two different selection tests and passed both. She had an hour tutoring a week for 4 months and a little homework but she is fairly academic . I personally think it’s worth the effort but your son has to be prepared to put the work in because if he can’t be bothered now he just won’t cope with the homework. I don’t think children need to be doing hours of work each week , perpetration is all they need. If you can afford a tutor it’s easier because kids work better and harder for someone else but you can get past papers to practice and most of all get use to the spear of the test.

I'm on my fourth time through the 11+ with DC4. The other three have all passed and yes, it's been worth it for them because they are thriving with the expectations, speed and opportunities. However, DC4 is a lazy little toad, but very clever, so he is hating the prep, but as his school are not allowed to teach the children VR/NVR/spatial prep, he has to learn the techniques, and is doing so for an hour a week with a tutor, who gives him probably another hour a week to do - comprehension, maths and NVR etc. He really wants to follow his siblings to grammar school, but isn't keen to put the work in, so then I say fine, don't do it, completely your choice but you can't go to X school - and he redoubles his efforts! If it's a struggle and your son is not motivated, then assuming he isn't taking it until next year, I would take the pressure right off and try again at Easter. Perhaps try word puzzles and stuff which he doesn't think is 11+ prep, but will help him when the time comes. You don't want to put him off learning and assuming he's bright he shouldn't need years of tutoring......

I think you should enter him, but I'd suggest not putting too much pressure on him as he might not be taking it as well as if he wanted to be sat there. I'd maybe prepare a little once a week, and you can do more over the holidays.

My eldest was expected to pass, is gifted and talented at school, working above age for everything, worked his bloody socks off for it, did an hour a day of it, even passed the 4 mocks he sat.

Failed on the day. He’s been in fucking bits since. It’s horrible. He has friends going. No friends going to the local comp.

Please bare that in mind, such a small percentage get in. You can do everything, have a ‘grammar’ child. But if they don’t get it on the day, they don’t get it no matter how hard they’ve worked and want it.

That’s a heartbreaking lesson to learn at 10.

DS wasn't always very keen in yr 5. Afterall they are only 9 ! He is now doing absolutely brilliantly in yr11 of a superselective grammar. Check out the motivation curvebradrourke.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/curve.png it gives some idea of why your ds's motivation may be lagging. I would definately press on (but I am an unrepentant tiger mother)

Thank you everyone for your wonderful advice. I believe I need to rethink what I am doing. I think I’m the one in the wrong here and maybe (with my lack of knowledge on 11+ prep and relying on school gate gossip) I’ve approached the whole thing wrong. I was so keen on helping him get something he really wanted and completely forgot that he has a different learning style and the exam is next September, we have loads of time.

I’m going to give him a break for a few weeks. I want to encourage his love of learning back. Once we have this I’m planning on short bursts of fun/practical based 11+ things. Someone mentioned puzzles, he loves puzzles so I think this is a brilliant idea. Thank you.

I don’t want to completely stop, he wants grammar school so I believe it’s our job to encourage that and help him achieve his ambition.

Many of you have said about starting properly early next year. I like this idea. If he is still keen on going to grammar I will enter him for the exam and start to concentrate on practice papers/questions then.

Thank you everyone. You’ve all made me see sense. It’s what I needed.

Pop over to elevenplusexams to find out more. I never would have done the journey without a willing DD. She saw the options and she wanted the grammar school and then worked for it - with our support. No paid for tuition, no more than an hour a week. Our other options were a school DD could not understand the conversation of those attending - or go private. She never knew the latter option involved selling our home as we wouldn’t put that pressure on her but we were fortunate with at least having that choice.

Op it depends very much on what the alternatives are for you. DD is thriving at her
grammar, as are her friends who mostly have brothers in the local boys grammar. It is not a silver bullet of educational solutions but it is from our experience very very god and absolutely the right fit for DD both academically and socially.

Good- not God!

Younger children are more awake in the mornings, so you could try doing ten to 15 mins before school, if your schedule allows.

Let him plan a timetable, of when he wants to work, with you.