Expulsion?

[JulieJay833]

My 14 year old has just started year 10 at one of the best schools in London which is not private.

During years 7-9 at all parents evenings I was told she was doing well and was at the very least doing average work for this school.

She is now in year 10 and I have been called in on multiple occasions to be told she is not doing well at all and her work is bad and she is not applying herself during lessons or with any of her work.

I have also been informed that she has been falling asleep during lessons quite frequently. I am currently awaiting blood test results to see if she had a problem as to why she is falling asleep. She sleeps on average 9 hours per night.

Anyway during the last meeting with her head of year I was threatened with social services because of the falling asleep, to which I responded with ‘do I not get a chance to even seek some medical advice’ and she said well we have to inform social services if it continues. To which I replied ‘You do not care about my child you only care about results’ which was not responded to so I said maybe my child should not be at this school. Which was met with ‘i will have to fill some of that form out for you and please make sure the child has good attendance for the new school to look at’ and that is when I promptly left.

When my child returned home that evening she told me they took her in the room after I left and said ‘this school isn’t for everybody’ and some other crap.

What I want to know is can they remove my child from their prestigious school for not so great results. Or can she stay there and try harder or can they actually get rid of her as to not harm their great results record?

Sorry for long post, just giving all information.

No they can’t remove her for poor results, but you were the one who brought up her leaving the school, not them.

Are you sure she is sleeping 9 hours a night? Not on her phone snapchatting or anything? Maybe you could buy a fitbit or something with a sleep tracker to see how much she is actually getting.

They cannot legally exclude her because of her performance. Unfortunately that doesn't guarantee they won't try. A lot of schools exclude pupils illegally.

I doubt they threatened you with social services. They have a duty to report anything that makes them concerned. Are they suspecting a drug issue maybe?

You were the one who brought up leaving the school and it's fairly standard to offer the forms to parents who wish to remove their child. The logic for the school is "if you think what we are offering isn't good and you're unhappy then find another school because we know we have a waitlist and the place could be filled by the end of the day".

On the social services front, a child suddenly changing and falling asleep etc would be a safeguarding concern and probably would, depending on other factors, warrant a multiagency meeting with a view to supporting the child and family. Social services aren't a thread where people walk in and snatch children from parents, though that's often how they are perceived.

They can't legally exclude for results or anticipated performance. There's a process to go through long before permanent exclusion is an option, and unless something major happened she's probably going to be on roll at the point where the census for y11 students is sent off to identify who counts in the progress figures.

They are considering it as a safeguarding issue - the falling asleep, lower attainment, change in attitude etc could well indicate an issue at home or beyond. Referring to gp to assess her physically is a start but getting defensive otherwise will get the backs up of the staff and suggest you are hiding something. You have initiated the conversation about moving her.

Do you want her at that school or not? It's not clear from your OP as you seem to have threatened the school with her leaving and been shocked by their response of ok if that's what you want to do here is the form.

I brought up leaving the school as they didnt respond to my comment about how they do not care about their students they only care about results to see if that is what they wanted and from the instant response to this it is in my opinion they wanted me to say that. Anyways all i wanted was an answer if she can be thrown out due to poor work.
And yes i was told if she continues to be sleepy during lessons they will call social services and inform them. That is a threat in my opinion seeing as we hadn’t been given the chance to seek medical advice yet or any time whatsoever to see if their was an improvement of her sleepiness after i did some investigation into it at home, such as if she is actually going to sleep at night when she is meant to and such.
We have no issues as a family and the child in question is extremely well behaved at school and always has been at home.

It’s not a threat. It’s a mark of concern for your child.

I honestly wouldn't stress about it. They won't kick her out. Please don't overreact as it will just make you look suspicious. They are just doing their job and have obviously seen a substantial difference in her behaviour recently. As frustrating as it may seem and I can completely see it from your point of view, this does look like a safeguarding concern. If social services did get involved it would likely be someone from the early intervention team that would visit and than leave you alone once they see everything is ok after a couple of visits. There are so many kids who have awful things happening to them at home that show exactly those signs and in my opinion the school is being very professional in addressing this.
Some teenagers have crazy second lives that their parents don't know nothing about. If you haven't already done so I would make sure she hasn't got her phone in her room after say 9pm and internet switched off at night. Try doing calm stuff on weekends like going on walks or to a cafe to help her possibly open up about something that may be making her sad or upset. It may be nothing and she is just growing and super tired, but it may he something more sinister that the school have come across before and are just doing their job in checking.

You're getting defensive, which is totally normal. You're her mum and up until now she's been a perfect student. You've not made any changes at home, so when the school suggest that home life might have caused the changes in her, you feel attacked. Of course you do; we all would.

But look at it as a teacher. A pupil who, up until now, has been perfect is suddenly falling behind in her work, not applying herself during lessons and falling asleep in class, her whole attitude has changed. That screams "something bad has happened". They need to question it. They have a duty of care and if they suspect anything bad at home then they need to report. Something has changed. Medical investigation can be done with or without SS speaking to you, but if this were another child and they didn't call SS then you all heard that the kid has been abused, you'd be asking why the school didn't call.

Stop being argumentative and defensive. It won't help you. Don't make threats to remove her if that's not what you want. Call the GP and speed up the process.

So you decided to test the school by saying about their results and leaving, and then seem to take a reasonable response of "ok this is how you withdraw if youre not happy" as proof you were right.
The thing is any oversubscribed school would probably say the same thing. They're not going to sit and beg someone to stay who has made it clear they don't rate the school.

They aren't threatening you with social services. They have a legal duty to safeguard and part of that means passing on concerns. They're not paid to investigate or pass judgement. They are paid to pass on relevant concerns.

I wouldn't respond to a comment such as "you don't care about my child, you only care about results" either.
It is understandable that you feel frustrated, but the best outcome for your child is that you work with the school and any other relevant external agency to explore what is currently happening with her. They cannot kick her out for poor academic performance: the offer of the forms is a very standard response to a threat to remove.

Thanks for your input. I am grateful l for your advice and to others commenting i will happily welcome social services with open arms. We have absolutely nothing to hide. But i think maybe i understand why nobody likes them especially when they apparently need to be notified about something when the parent isn’t notified about the matter themselves or given a chance to respond to any incidents that are occurring.

And asking maybe my child should not be at this school? Was no threat whatsoever. But the school saying to a child ‘this school isnt for everyone’ is ok apparently lol

But i think maybe i understand why nobody likes them especially when they apparently need to be notified about something when the parent isn’t notified about the matter themselves or given a chance to respond to any incidents that are occurring.
Why would a parent be notified if there are concerns about a child when those with concerns have zero idea if the source of the concern is the parents / a child's home situation?
Do you have any idea how much danger telling parents could put some children in?

As a teacher my job isn't to investigate or decide to be judge; it's to pass on concerns to the appropriate people and let them do their jobs.

But the school saying to a child ‘this school isnt for everyone’ is ok apparently lol
It's fairly standard if a student/parent has expressed their view that they aren't happy with the school.

I've known entirely reasonable members of staff point out to students that they are fortunate to be in a given school and theres a waiting list of people so it seems silly to throw away the opportunity the school offers.

Not all schools are for everyone, bebit parent, child or teacher. For example I know of a friend who was told "this school isn't for everyone". Ultimately the friend selected a school because they wanted a nice middle class, high performing school with lots of enrichment, but then ended up being vocally against the things that gave it many of the pull factors. It wasn't unreasonable for their mentor to suggest they reflect on what they're wanting in a school .

You sound like an absolute dream to deal with. By the sounds of it there is nothing more anyone can tell you that you probably haven't ready heard or had an argument about. Therefore all the best and in answer to your question, no state schools cannot off roll pupils for underperforming, however it does happen in a process called offrolling which is illegal. As mentioned previously however this is definitely a safeguarding issue and not a offrolling one. All the best.

There are cases where a school telling parents that they have cause to refer a case to social services could actually put a child in danger. That’s why they don’t tell them.
And maybe the school is right. Maybe that school doesn’t suit your child.

If your not already, make sure all internet enabled devices are removed from the bedroom over night.

I would be surprised that “calling social services” is following their Safeguarding Policy. It’s a threat in my view. The child should see a Dr. This would be the first response in most schools. They would consider it a health issue. As indeed it might be. Clear that hurdle first.

I’m never happy with schools using the “you are lucky to be here” stick. Why? The place was offered and DD qualified for it. She’s no more lucky than any other pupil.

If she is ill, what then?

bubbles
Calling social services is absolutely in almost all safeguarding policies if the designated safeguarding leaders require guidance or to pass on concerns.

From a safeguarding perspective:
A child has spent 3 years doing fine, was settled and doing ok
Suddenly their approach/outlook changes
Their work drops off
They're lethargic and falling asleep in school

All of those would be safeguarding concerns in any school, put them together and contacting social services would be an entirely reasonable response if there's questions over a child's wellbeing.

As for the "lucky to be here" thing. A student is lucky to qualify for a place in a good, oversubscribed school. Sometimes a child gets a place purely for living 20m closer.
In other situations where a student isn't making the most of what is on offer, isn't behaving, isn't meeting expectations then I think it's entirely reasonable for a school to point out that "this is the deal we offer and if you don't like it then here are many other schools with different deals, your choice".

Had the OP not already made noises about the school not being right for her daughter and wanting to leave etc then I think this situation would have been the wrong situation to raise it (due to wellbeing concerns), but as it was instigated by the OP then I can't see the issue.

They can't exclude her for poor results.

It does sound like they are encouraging you to find another school but they can't make you. I wouldn't want to change schools mid year 10 unless essential.

I would be very concerned about her falling asleep a lot. What does she say about this? I think you are right to pursue medical tests to rule out any medical issues. No chance she would have access to any drugs is there? I know it's hard to imagine a previously perfectly behaved child doing that but for some it's like self-harm if they can't cope with pressure and sounds like there's lots of pressure for results. Worth checking phone use etc though odd for sudden change unless friend group changed. If school are mentioning SS I wonder if they are want drugs ruled in or out, though they are supposed to refer any concerns up without investigating. I would maybe ask them politely why they think it's a SS matter and what are their concerns. Obviously almost no-one wants SS involved but the important thing is if there is something very wrong to get your daughter help. SS are also over-run so will be in and out of your lives quickly if all is fine.

is it a school begining with L in north london

I know a school that manages to get rid of the pupils. It's an oversubscribed, high achieving Academy. They can't actively kick students out, but with a friend's DD, they started saying 'this school isn't right for everyone'. Then just ignored all her pleas for help with her DD. Her DD got more and more unhappy and sidelined until in the end my friend moved her. It's apparently not uncommon there (lots of kids leave) and the school actively don't seem to be bothered, as if the school isn't for you, they don't want you and can easily fill the place. The good news is that she's really thriving at her new school, so OP, maybe the current school just isn't the right one for your DD.