Three or four A-levels where one is Further Maths?

[Mutakirorikatum]

This was touched on in another current thread, but I'd like some specific advice, please!

DD wants to do Physics at university, possibly Oxbridge or Imperial. Clearly Maths and Physics are essential A-levels, and the general advice from schools (we're looking at several schools and a 6th form college) seems to be that university Physics departments really value Further Maths but can't actually insist on it because of some schools not offering it. Advice also suggests that the content of FMaths will help with Physics, both at a-level and at university.

Dd is good at Maths, but not totally in love with it for its own sake, but seems to have accepted that taking FMaths is likely to be a good move. The question now is whether Maths, F Maths and Physics on its own is enough of a workload, or whether people doing further Maths would usually do a fourth subject?

Dd is keen to do French or possibly Chemistry as a fourth, for variety and because she likes the idea of something that is a bit of a contrast, but obviously doesn't want to overload herself and/or risk dropping grades in her other subjects.

Any thoughts or advice on the Further-maths-as-a-full-A-level conundrum?

I did two different Further Maths as well as 3 normal A-levels. I didn't find it too hard. I adore maths. I'd do chemistry as the third because you need practicals in a lab. Do French as an extracurricular. Join a conversation club or something alongside duolingo. It will look good on applications (and be more useful irl later).

Titchy is the horses mouth when it comes to top-end uni admissions - she is to be trusted on this, if anyone says anything she disagrees with she's almost certainly correct.

I have heard of FM only being accepted as a 4th subject (though a desirable one) at one or two of the top London unis but for Economics - not for physics, maths and engineering.

DD is doing engineering at Cambridge with physics, maths and FM A levels, though was fortunately in the last year of the old formats so did comp sci to AS and also a relevant EPQ.

But taking just physics, maths and fm from the outset is a risky strategy - you do hear of people who find A levels that much harder and it does limit options if they change their mind about what they want to do at uni. Much better to start 4 and see how it goes.

@titchy what world are you living in haha. top unis dont give out offers willy nilly.

I have been told with A levels now moving over to linear in the past couple of years, they have become harder and even the top universities are happy with 3 good grades. Dd was advised that if she wanted to consider Oxbridge to do 3 rather than 4. This is because 3 excellent grades would be better than 4 not so good grades.

As dd is adamant she wants to do 4, one of which is FM, I would appreciate some info on if there has been a recent change in what top universities are looking for.

what world are you living in haha. top unis dont give out offers willy nilly.

I didn't say they did But nationally physics is undersubscribed and admissions tutors are delighted when student's with physics maths and FM applies with the right predicted grades for their institution. They certainly don't sneer and regard FM as only worth half. Physics and Maths bods would generally prefer FM as the third over say History. In fact they'd probably think Maths, FM and super-duper-Yet-More-really-hard-Maths were the ideal three A levels if the latter existed! Plus step at some.

Physics and Maths admissions tutors are used to students with spiky, or one sided profiles - it goes with the territory.

However the advice to start with four is solid - many a sixth former has had a change of heart between deciding subjects and applying to university.

Excuse erroneous apostrophe

The OP asked about Oxford and Imperial. They are not representative of the “national picture”. They are very competitive courses. No admissions tutors there needs to bite anyone’s hand off to get them onto their courses!

An offer by return might have been slight exaggeration, obviously the likes of oxbridge and Imperial interview. (and elsewhere might interview but from DDs experience, they'd be in 'recruit' mode for an applicant with good predictions for 2*maths +physics)

But the idea FM isn't counted as a full a level by the courses for which it's highly desirable/required if the school offers it is simply wrong.

Argh... I used a * for 'times' and mucked up bolding.

My DD took Maths, FM, Physics and Chemistry and went on to do Theoretical Physics (graduated this year). Her opinion was that having the FM made the first year of uni much easier.

Place marking as my son is looking for similar advice.

I would stick to aiming for A*/A for Maths, FM and Physics.

Languages at A level require an enormous amount of work. DS is doing two and the other two, one of which is Maths, are far less time consuming and enjoyable. It's also increasingly hard to do well in MFL A level unless you are native speaker (fewer are doing it and the native speakers that are push the grade boundaries right up). Better to do an EPQ in something related to her University choice imo.

Re EPQs, if you've got a 'spiky' ie asymmetrically talented STEM type kid who doesn't much like essays, they might want to do an 'artefact' of some sort.

Interesting thread. We have been debating the three or four A levels thing as DS would ideally like to do maths or engineering at a top university (Cambridge in his ideal world, I am less sure).

After some thought, DS is planning on doing maths, further maths, physics and chemistry. The option is there to drop the further maths if the workload is too heavy.

I had also heard anecdotally that some unis do not count further maths as one of the three but haven’t looked into it.

If he wants to do the Cambridge MEng or maths, those are great subjects but if it's too much he almost certainly should keep the FM and drop the chemistry. They need the fm, they don't need chemistry at all. (Unless they want to do chem eng which is a different thing and from what I've heard the top courses for that are very mathsy too)

@Teensruletheroost contact the Cambridge admissions office to check up to date information. They really are there to help with this sort of thing 👍

Thanks Errol and Weathergirl, I’d best actually look into this sooner rather than later I guess.

I think he will be ok with the four as he works hard and actually loves maths. I am pretty sure he doesn’t want to do chemical engineering.

Will look into it further before he has to make final applications.

Sixth form applications that is.

@Teensruletheroost if he did go to Cambridge, he wouldn't be able to do Chem Eng in the first year anyway - that starts in year 2 with a mix of people who've done 1st year Engineering or 1st year NatSci - which is the beauty of the Cambridge tripos system in that it's flexible and people often end up doing something different to their first intention!

Just email the admissions people.

I emailed Imperial and Oxford's maths and computer science departments when ds was considering dropping physics. All 4 replies said maths, FM and one other would be fine.

So maybe start with 4 if she wants, and do some research to reassure yourselves that dropping to 3 won't be a disadvantage.

(He didn't apply to either of them, but did get offers from all his choices, including Cambridge, after he'd dropped physics. Started uni this year, so this is last year's information - as up to date as you can get.)

Echoing advice re contacting admissions - DD emailed a few at the end of yr 11 when she wasn't totally sure about her A level choices, she got some extremely nice replies. It should be pretty easy to find the contact details in uni websites - and, of obviously , their current course requirements. Cambridge (not sure if the same applies to Oxford) is a little more complicated as the precise details may vary between colleges but finding all the info shouldn't be beyond the capabilities of a kid bright enough to be thinking of applying there.

I would echo PPs to keep options as open as possible by doing 4 A levels including FM at least until the first half term of year 12. The start of year 11 is far too early to know for your DD to know for sure that she would like to do physics degree rather than for example natural sciences. It is not enough to be interested in the concepts of physics to enjoy a physics degree at Oxbridge or Imperial or similar, in fact the FM A level probably gives the best idea of what those type of courses will entail for many of their modules. It is a shame that many sixth forms don’t teach the maths and FM A levels in parallel in year 12 as that would be a faster way to discover preferences and aptitude’s.

Ds2 has just started sixth form doing maths, further maths, physics and computer science. He got 9s in all of those at GCSE except FM as his school didn't offer it, but he is not a spiky profile child either achieving mainly 9s.

He has 5 hours of teaching per week per subject, so for maths he has 2 teachers and 10 hours of maths. You really have to love it.

He was told if he was considering physics at uni then FM would help as the first year of physics covers a lot of FM content. It just makes it easier.

They have said that if a child struggles with doing FM then they just drop down to 3 A levels at the end of year 12. Ds is looking to do computer science at uni and the ones he is looking at say they don't care about your EPQ. He isn't doing one.

If you have read other threads on this topic you may well have come across me before. My advice remains the same as on other similar threads.
A/ check with individual unis what they are looking for and go with it.
B/ stick with getting excellent grades in 3 A-levels and view a 4th as just a bonus but NOT necessarily one that will sway admissions tutors, they are looking for different stuff.
C/ if your DC has an undying interest in a 4th subject, he/she can always carry on with it later, or indeed even at uni.
I had quite a few students in this dilemma and the advice of only going for the 3 excellent A-levels was followed and paid off. They all got top grades and ended up in RG unis, and they then carried on with their fourth choice, French, at uni. Which parallels what you are talking about, or Chemistry if she prefers.
Do not be afraid to email individual unis to see what they think, it is in their interests to tell you the truth.