SEN and Academic Schools

[17Once]

Just that really, is the unfortunate view of Caterham school and others true that they don’t take many (outside those that come up through their juniors) with SEN issues and those that they find later on are gently advised/managed out?

Anyone with personal experience?

Not sure I want to put DC through the process if this is unchanged

Anyone able to comment on how good their SEN department is?

Are applications truly treated fairly/the same? Once entrance is passed and offers sent, SEN numbers are then viewed?

I suppose the same question would apply to any academic school...

All views welcomed!

Ds is at state grammar and has recently been diagnosed with an SEN in year 11. Quite honestly it's been awful but I'm not sure if that is because he went undiagnosed for so long. In hindsight I would not have sent him there. He passed the 11+ without any formal tutoring so it we thought it would be the right place. It has not been at all. He does have a little support now but that has taken a huge amount of pushing from us. Pastoral care has also been lacking up until we started to complain.

I guess it depends how well a child copes, what their sen is and the impact it will have on their education. I'm guessing this is a private school so you don't want to be paying for somewhere that doesn't welcome your child.

I went to a fairly academic grammar, there were a few pupils with mild SEN who were bullied relentlessly. I wouldn't do it if I were you. Perhaps a smaller school with more experience of SEN pupils would be best. My sister has severe dyslexia- she went to a small local comp instead and also went to uni.

Hi nothappy and pun thanks for replying. Both your responses are why I have posed this question. DC is very bright and just as an explanation, not to boast, but has maths iq above 140. General iq only 115 but this is bought down by processing score. Just outside border for extra time, so if they did manage to pass, am wondering if Caterham has a good SEN to support learning, or would this be a grave mistake. Have read previous comments that haven’t been favourable, but that was some time ago and things may have changed.
Recent visit to the school placed it on DC list and have to say head went some way to re-iterate they don’t push anyone out once in, but just trying to find out if these are just words and what the reality might be. Also, does that mean, they scrutinise application to sieve out SENs prior, so, no point in applying in the first place? Which would make their statement true.
Closing date looming this Friday.... don’t want to limit DC opportunities based on my concerns if unfounded, but don’t want to dampen their spirit by trying for something they have no chance getting.

Help!

I think it very much depends on what type of SEN your child has.

Generalisation follows here so apologies in advance.. Academic schools often have DC with high functioning autism and tend to be more prepared for that. However if it's a SpLD like dyslexia or dyspraxia, I am much less sure. Many don't have a trained SENco and the post is "covered" by a regular teacher.

If I had my time again, I'd go to each school and directly ask about SEN support. At least one selective school near me openly says that they don't support SpLD well - in breach of the Admissions Code of course but I guess they get points for honesty.

My child has dyslexia and is in a selective secondary school - like @Punxsutawney we didn't have a formal diagnosis when we applied. My DC has a very spikey profile - high non-verbal ability but with significant phonological processing and short-term memory issues. I'm not entirely sure how well the school will follow the recommendations..

The second point is what are your options? There is a lot of disruption in the non-selective schools near us, and that would be a bigger issue for my DC than the SEN issue. With a good comp nearby, we may have chosen differently.

Think it depends on the sen . We know of several with Spld and disabilities who have been catered for at Caterham and other academic schools. Indeed another has significantly changed its position since we first looked around and ruled it out on that basis.

Apologies - i see your issue is a processing issue too.

I wouldn’t say it’s an academic vs non-academic school issue. Just because a school isn’t academic, doesn’t mean it’s fab with SEN and gets the best out of every child. Sometimes, the opposite is true. If you’re looking at schools, I’d chat to their SEN Coordinators to get a sense of how on the ball they are and give you a sense of what’s put in place for those who need it.

In terms of managing children out, it’s very harsh but equally it isn’t fair on a child that isn’t coping to feel like they’re the odd one out or the least able in the year. Pretty awful for their confidence levels.

It also depends what adjustments and support you are seeking. At Caterham ipad use is the norm anyway and there are a number of laptop users in exams.

I agree you need to look beyond the policy. Send your child’s Ed psych report and have a detailed conversation with the SENCO about what they provide and how they support

You need to talk to the senco at Caterham and is the senco at other private schools to compare. Some of the academic Surrey schools are good with Sen others dreadful but sorry I don't know about Caterham. You find out very quickly talking to the sencos. One good questions is do you have other children at the school with a similar profile? What have they put in place for those children? You can register then pull out if you can't talk you the senco in time as it's half term or phone admissions and explain you need to talk to the senco first.

Hi suffolk we actually did talk to someone I believe was from the SEN department when we visited but didn’t really get a sense/feel either way, which was why I was looking for anyone with past experiences. It was also the possible vetting out process which scared us might happen and was trying to gain insight on this. DC report was some time ago and am considering updating it which might bring them within the extra time bracket, but half thinking, as it is an academic school, not to bother. My thinking on this is if they can pass without the assistance then maybe they will be able to cope well in that environment. Additional assistance thereafter, whilst there to support learning would then be a bonus which we would like to rely on/not worry about, but it kinda needs to exist. Hope I am making sense.

LIZ, I am not sure what adjustment to look for and would primarily be guided by their SEN department, so not looking for anything specific. Not sure, other than extra time, what other adjustments are available. As mentioned, DC is hampered by their processing generally so e.g. slow at writing, but content very good. Slow reading but comprehension again very good. All of which bizarrely doesn’t seem to affect maths speed

What school is dc at now? You probably won't get the same day to day input from a secondary and need to identify what it is you are requesting to ask them. Has ep indicated anything? Are you sure he needs anything specifically? Apart from agreeing exam adjustments ds had relatively little contact with senco. Ime strong attainment in the entrance tests and interview tends to override any negativity towards dc with SEND.

So basically so far your son has needed extra time to complete his work and that’s the only type of support he has needed to do well. I’m not sure why a particularly impressive SEN department would be needed for that.

For extra time processing needs to be below 85. However an up to date Ed Psych Report is needed to get extra time for the entrance exams. Plenty of people do risk not telling the schools about Sen but as you have found it is then difficult to work out if they would give the necessary support. Also they could subsequently withdraw the place if you are untruthful on the application form. It's tricky. We decided if they don't like DCs diagnosis then we don't want the school this too is risky, time will tell if out truthful strategy pays off.

DS is at the non fee-paying school in our area with the best exam results. He has ASD and they've been great - SEN head is also a dyslexia specialist and I know friends have found that's a big help. They give extra help and support where needed but he's not spoon-fed IYSWIM. There has been some name-calling by some kids but he's coped.

Hi jojo not sure i’m looking for an ‘impressive’ Sen department. Sorry if I gave that impression. You rightly point out that the only issue I am aware of is processing which seems adequately catered for with extra time currently. I suppose what I may have failed to get across is that am keen to pick the right school. Past comments on Caterham have been a bit of a turn off in how they seek to exit kids with SEN.

As both Punx and fantastic point out, some diagnoses don’t come until later, after entry. Not saying I am expecting any other issues to arise, but one ever knows. Picking a tolerant school of these issues has its benefits and this is the perfect time to make those decisions.

Not known any asked to leave Caterham, other than usual movements at sixth form, and then not sen related.

OP my DS2 has an similiarish profile to yours his IQ for math is in excess of 150 general IQ 139 but processing only average. He was diagnosed with dyslexia at age 8. It’s was described as mild but I don’t think it is he cannot spell any word with more that 5 letters and his reading is very slow, he reads every word he doesn’t get phonics so does whole word recognition so any incorrect spelling he doesn’t recognise the word at all. His hand writing is illegible.
He went to Winchester College they have an extensive intellectual non examined curriculum called “div” for all year groups comprising a daily lessons and often reading around the subject being looked at and writing an essay once a week a lot of emphasis was placed on writing style. He also leant three languages. He was given extra time in all his exams, we were told he’d never get a A* in English Lang GCSE as he wouldn't be able to finish the exams even with the extra time this was true but his did get an A.
But I don't think it was till yr 12/13 that he started to struggle: he did one arts subject and the reading and writing requirements for it and div got much more demanding. He did very but I suspect would have got the equivalent straight A*s (he did pre Us) if he’d stuck with science subjects.
The SEN support was very good at Winchester but I’m not sure how easy it is to support dyslexia, he’s had masses of SEM support showing him strategies to manage it but he still can’t spell read well or write legibly. In the end he’s just learnt to live with it and get on with life.
He’s never been bullied at school because of it and he kept up all the way through his school career, he’s did no work at all for his GCSE:s (much to the annoyance of his peers at school and his teachers) and only worked for the art subject in the 6th form. So I guess what I’m basically saying is that those with SEN can manage and do very well at the right “academic” school.

“He did very but I suspect” = He did very well but I suspect

I do know someone who was asked to leave Caterham because of SEN (dyslexia), as they moved up from the prep into the senior school. One of their parents was a member of staff, so this was particularly distressing. However, this was c8 years ago and there has been a change of leadership since, so I would hope things are much better now, and the teaching approach inc iPads has clearly moved on quite a bit in this time.

I don't know about SEN specifically at Caterham but as a SENCO It sounds like your child will be fine. what provision did their SENCO say - dropping a language and having more support or spelling/reading support during lunch or tutor times? At my school, all the reports are passed to me and I make comments about whether we can provision that need - mostly we can and if I have doubts I contact the primary school. BUT what you need to remember that schools like Caterham, etc have a department of one or, at the most, two people so provision is limited. That is to say, if a child needs significant in class support or very specific, regular provision, then that is not feasible. Sometimes an academic environment with studying loads of languages, Latin, all the sciences, is just not the right course for that particular horse, who might need a wider choice at GCSE - say, they are amazing at dance or graphic design rather than having to take all three sciences. This is why, I think, that there may be a perception of managing out but in actuality it may well be being done for the good of the child because the provision isn't there for them and the parents are not very realistic.

It is more than possible that as a pupil becomes older, their processing speed remains similar but because they are older their standardised scores reduce so he may be entitled to extra time now. Any SEN department worth their salt will test in Year 7 ( although many use online testing which, in my experience comes up with some stupid results), individually test those who have a question mark against them. This should be redone in Year 9 for GCSEs access arrangements. is there any way his current school can redo the speed of processing tests for you. Bit of a pain paying for an Ed Psych before secondary.

Loads to consider here! Thanks for so many replies. Will submit application. See if DC is offered a place and have another go at speaking with SEN department before accepting any offer 2020. Not going to seek any extra time at this stage, as would feel more comfortable about the whole thing if place is offered without.

Full declaration made and as someone else has said above, if they don’t want bright SEN kids, I wouldn’t want my child going there anyway, so win win for us all!

Hi flying our posts seemed to cross. Deadline for Caterham is today, so no time for retesting. Although as i’ve Said, I think we’d feel more comfortable if DC got in on own merits which would indicate they would be able to keep up with the pace of the school. Any additional time thereafter assessed as being needed, would then be a bonus. Trying hard not to under calculate DCs potential by just ruling out academic schools, but also not wanting to place them in a settle we will later regret... tricky. But I think if they got in with no extra time, this would be a good indication they’ll be fine.

At least I hope

I don’t know Caterham, but I would advise against limiting his options, particularly, if he is bright.

DD has dyslexia and went to a super selective grammar school (her GCSEs - 10 A to A* - included Latin and French - so don’t discount languages). She is now on a competitive graduate scheme. She did not receive any additional support at school and did not get extra time in her GCSEs as she hadn’t been diagnosed; however, she has a phenomenal work ethic.

I now assess for dyslexia and provide study skills support - my clients range from students who go on to Oxbridge or to study Medicine to others who are unlikely to achieve any GCSEs at Grade 4 or above.

Cognitive ability, protective factors such as high levels of literacy within the family, individual work ethic and strategies that the students develop to support their difficulties all play a huge part in outcomes. I always tell my students that dyslexia is a reason for finding some things difficult, but not an excuse not to do well.

FWIW the SENCO at Whitgift down the road is crap (and does Old Palace too) so even if SEN support at Caterham s bad it's not as if there is another local academic school with a really good one....