Y7 assessements - any Secondary parents/teachers able to help?

[SarfE4sticated]

hi there, I hope you can help. My DD did quite well at her SATs, mostly due to the supreme efforts of her teacher and the staff of her primary. She has since started our local secondary which is very academic, and they use their y6 SATs scores to set their targets for the year. My DD has been set the highest target (I think) for every subject, and has got pretty terrible marks for everything in her first secondary school report. Her friends who have been set more moderate targets have got the same marks as her in the assessments and got lots of 'on track's and 'above expected's.
I guess my worry is that DD will either brand herself as 'rubbish at science' because of this, or will spend her school career being judged against a standard she won't meet.
So, will this target stay the same throughout the school, or is it adjusted each year? Obviously they want to see progress but they won't want to set her up to fail will they?
DD is very conscientious and like most 12yr old girls she is going through a rather emotional stage, and I want her to feel motivated and excited by her new subjects and teachers. Not like she has failed in her first 6 weeks there. What do you suggest I do?
Thanks in advance

I don't like this system. I did well in my year 6 Sat's but there was this particular subject at secondary I was just crap at. Because of my Sat's I was expected to do well in everything and I always got it in the neck for not trying hard enough at this subject. I was trying it's just that I wasn't good at it

OP. I think you may need to keep a close eye on your DD's mental health and self esteem.

If she did 'over well' in SATs and then you 'lean in' to help her keep achieving so high in order to meet over high expectations, you could end up with a daughter who feels stressed and failing.

Instead you could ask the school for flightpath info or what 'below track' means for your DD - it could still mean on target for 7s. Then just keep explaining to your DD that the school's expectations are based on SATs which you and she know were unexpectedly high compared with peers at primary, and so you aren't going to 'hold' her to them.

Yes, you want her to do well, and to think you have faith in her, but you also want her to come out of y11 with intact mental health.

(ps My DD's school gives a progress measure but also a flightpath prediction based on current attainment. So if your DD was at our school she might see 'slightly below' but would also see 'on track for 6,7')

It's a crap system but it's the system schools are judged on. That's why they report this stuff to parents. I hope one day parents will realise and start protesting against the crap system. As teachers we are trying but so often are ignored.

I tell my DC to ignore their targets as they are purely a data exercise for the school. I would strongly suggest you do the same and tell her that she just needs to do the best she can. I think the "effort" mark on school reports is more useful than attainment tbh.

I actually have DC at both ends of this. DS got much higher than expected SATS and spent all of KS3 looking as if he was going backwards. DD, on the other hand had a nightmare and did much worse than expected so her targets are way too low for her. Fortunately the school quickly worked this out and so she is being suitably challenged.

That’s right teen. I have rather a hippy view of education so won’t pressurise her to achieve, but if she enjoys the challenge and does well anyway I’ll support her all the way.
Will have to see what is said at parents evening

My DD's secondary school are now moving their flightpaths to GCSE-grade targets so I'll find out what they are expecting at the end of November. I've already seen one of her exercise books with a grade (eg 6+) on it.

I said upthread that they set the targets from the SATs but I also think the Progress 8 comes into it as well - DD's school say they never lower a target as that would lead to underachievement for the school's Progress 8 score or for the pupil I wonder and they did test the pupils in a couple of subjects themselves before putting them into sets (English, Maths, Science).

I don't think there would be an issue if someone had underperformed in the SATs as no school is going to turn down the chance of getting someone to do better progress 8 again it is just the ones that did exceptionally well in the SATs. We all know that you can have a good day or a bad day with an exam, and the fact that the SATs follow your school life is a complete PITA IMO, although I'm told they are accurate.

@SarfE4sticated I'm a parent governor at a school with a similar system. They do go to great lengths explain it to students and parents, and most kids are fine with it, but it still upsets some families every year. The use of SATS scores in setting targets for practical subjects is a particular issue. Hopefully that part will be ditched eventually - we do keep raising it as an issue.

Does the school also report on behaviour and attitude? That is the measure worth focussing on the most.

Also, it is likely that the targets are for the end of the year rather than for where she's expected to be in October. If she was meeting them now then they would probably too low!

It's a crap system but it's the system schools are judged on.

They’re not though. Schools aren’t judged about how many kids hit those made-up flightpaths at all. It’s a pile of meaningless bollocks.

What schools are actually judged on is how pupils do in their GCSEs compared to other pupils in the same year of entry who got the same (average) KS2 SATs results.

What these kids will actually get in their GCSEs probably bears no relation to flightpaths because the flightpaths are where someone has simply drawn a straight line from a KS2 result to a GCSE result - a prediction.

But a prediction based on what? No one who has sat the new KS2 SATs has actually sat the new GCSEs so we don’t know how they match up at all. The proportion of kids getting 4+ at GCSE will remain roughly stable, the proportion of kids getting ‘expected’ at KS2 seems to go up yearly.
Will schools be revising their flightpaths accordingly for each year group? I doubt that much thought goes into it at all.

In addition, different schools use different flightpaths. Because it’s all made up.

Ask the school what proportion of kids actually follow their flightpath. Or get those target grades set in Y7. I bet it’s less than half.

Oh I agree noble re flight paths and targets being bollocks.

However schools are judged on the progress the kids make from their SATS. Therefore a pupil who has done well on SATS having higher targets than a pupil who got a lower score isn't an outrageous policy.

I'd happily scrap the whole lot!

The target grades are even more ridiculous when you try to apply them to subjects that they don't really correlate to.

One of DD's friends is an extremely talented artist. She is totally bemused that her target for Art is a 4. "Of course" that is based on her Y6 English SATS score. Success in reading and writing obviously being a good guide to artistic ability. (Yes I know there's more to the Art GCSE than being a good artist, but still ...)

My DD plays a sport at regional level, and is generally good at most sports, but has never met her PE target because it's based on her English/Maths SATs score. I think she would have to play every different PE sport at close to elite level in order to meet it. To be fair though, it doesn't bother her one bit, because she understands where the target comes from and what it means.

It bothers me more because I can't proudly present her report to her grandparents to show how well she's doing ... it would take too long to explain it and its just easier not to.

The more I read about these barmy state school measures, the more I despair. Progress 8 seems to be the new buzz word around here, but it almost makes it seem like the primary schools are badly failing. It’s a ridiculous system.
Did you child’s school do CAT tests OP? I know some secondaries also use CATS data to help guide setting.

Progress 8 seems to be the new buzz word around here, but it almost makes it seem like the primary schools are badly failing.

Not sure where you've got this idea from. Progress 8 just measures the progress of students with the same average SATS scores using their top 8 GCSE scores. (double weighted maths and English so may not be 8 different subjects).

Thanks so much everyone, I spoke to DD today and with her new oh-so-bored-with-life attitude said that it was too boring to talk about. She understands how it works and can I please stop talking about it.
Another parenting win for me there!

At least there has been no reference to the reports on any of the (many) whatsapp groups, so it doesn't seem to have started a wave of panic amongst the girls or parents.

I feel really informed now, so thanks so much, I will go into the parent's evening fully primed. I think I'll ask what happens if she gets too many 'belows' and will explain that she will get better results with more positive feedback! Her teachers seem very pleasant, young and enthusiastic, so will be good to sound them out.

Thanks again!

We are on Wales and don’t have SATs. We have welsh national tests which they do ever year from year 2 onwards. There’s no tutoring or pressure just a letter saying no holiday will be authorised that week. I think the kids may do a practice paper at some point but it’s just something that happens once a year and there’s no hoohaa about it. Parents don’t even compare scores or even ask each other about them!!
My 2 eldest are in year 7 and 8. They had targets on their reports but were competent different for each subject and seemed to reflect their ability eg DS1 had very very high English and maths and humanities targets but very low art and PE ones.

DS is at an independent secondary, and although it's very academic, there's so far been no talk of targets, no flightpaths, no predictions, and I know that assessment in the first couple of years is very low key. They just spend their time getting on with learning stuff and enjoying their subjects. Sorry, I know that's no help to you OP, but it just makes me quite sad really that state schools don't have the freedom to operate in a similar way. Having been through the state primary system and knowing lots of teachers very well, I know how frustrating it is for everyone involved - pupils, parents, teachers and school management. On the plus side, your daughter sounds pretty grounded, and you have a much healthier attitude than all the parents who will be fretting over their children's flightpaths because they don't understand the system.

I'm a secondary teacher, in a school with a very economically/socially diverse catchment. Some of our y7s went to primaries with SATs boosters, 11+ boosters, lots of private tutoring, etc. Others went to primaries performing well below the national average. Their KS3/GCSE targets tell me more about what primary they went to than what their potential is.

I've also had a student with a target of 3 in GCSE French, because she did poorly in her English SATs... having moved here in year 6, from France!

The best I can tell you is to ignore the targets and flight paths and help your DD to achieve her best.

Sorry, I know that's no help to you OP, but it just makes me quite sad really that state schools don't have the freedom to operate in a similar way.

Having gone to a state secondary school in the 1980s, when schools were free to teach (or not teach) whatever they wanted free of measurement and scrutiny, I am certain that today's schools are much better, despite their flaws. Targets are a necessary evil to make sure that all children are making progress. If they can be improved, then great, but if they were scrapped altogether I think we'd be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Interesting @WyfOfBathe

At dds MAT, you cannot get lower than 4 on your flight path. You can see where off-rolling comes into play here!

Thanks teacher-maths, I know it is measuring progress in that sense, but it does make you question whether the SATS scores are always fully reflective of a child’s potential. For instance If some kids are doing way better than expected in GCSE, as predicted by their year 6 SATS, you wonder whether the child might have been capable of better SATS scores in the first place. Perhaps I’m too cynical!
I agree Tashkent, our eldest attended independent secondary, and did extremely well. There was never any talk of nonsensical targets like this, set in stone from day one. It seems ridiculous that state schools are measuring progress in this way.

Ours aren't "set in stone". They're raised if the student is making greater progress (though never lowered).

You need to tell her not to worry about it and you need to not worry about it or you will stress her out. It really evens out in the end. My twins got 120 in maths sats but went to a different high schools. Based on his sats my son was given a grade of 5 by end of year 8 to achieve. My daughter was somehow reassessed on entry and give a grade of 3 to achieve by end of year 8. My son got a 3 by the end of first term (not sure how) but by end of 2nd term he was still on a 3 so had a warning sign on his report (and by end of year still a 3 so not sure what he has been doing!) - teacher said not to worry about it - that a 3 was fine as that the warning sign was only because he has been set a high grade of 5. My daughter ended up with a 2.5 by the end of the year so in theory was on track to exceed her 3.
BUT more importantly my children are not worried about it. The teachers said not to worry about it to me and I have told my children its not a big deal.

Same here. DD had high predicted grades - so she couldn’t exceed her targets only ‘managed’ targets

Friends with low targets could exceed them so it looked like they were doing better (which they were, based on individual targets)

So if predicted A* she would be on track or Good
Predicted a C but handed in a B paper they exceed -

Disappointing but that’s the way they do it

I went to a (state) secondary in the 80s as well, and it was fab. I realise not all of them were! I wonder if what all the scrutiny has done is to help improve the really atrocious schools, but simultaneously straitjacket the excellent ones?? There just seems to be so little focus now on fostering a love of learning and on critical thinking and learning how to learn. Of course, all secondaries are ultimately going to guided in what they teach by the exam boards, but in Years 7-9 at least I think there should be the freedom to teach for inspiration, not to follow a flightpath.