Non(or less)-selective independent secondary school or grammar schools with less applicants?

[XelaM]

Hello, my daughter is currently in Year 5 at a North London prep school and I am now going through the awful 11+ preparation process.

As my daughter is in a highly academic independent school with very ambitious kids (and parents), they are all focused on the highly selective North London grammars and independent schools (where my understanding is the entrance exams are even more challenging!). My daughter is keeping up fine in her insanely pushy school, but is not one of the super-bright academic kids.

She wants to sit most of the grammar and independent school exams (to keep up with her friends who are all discussing schools at the moment) and I got her tutoring to at least give her a fair chance at the tests.

However, given that she is not an academic genius, I realise that her chances of getting into one of the super-selective grammar or independent schools are very slim. Although I am happy to let her sit all the tests she wants, I am already panicking how this amount of (potential) rejection will affect her.

I am therefore looking at schools that are less selective in their intake. Can anyone offer any advice? I have heard Mount House are non-selective and we absolutely loved the school Are there any others anyone could recommend?

I would prefer a co-ed school, but am also open to all-girls schools. I just want the school to be a nice friendly environment for my daughter rather than an awful pressure-cooker.

Any help or advice is much appreciated.

I would say that latymer is one of the least pushy super selective grammars you can go to. I think their 'super selectiveness' comes from lack of other provision really. There's nothing like that available for north London kids, especially boys so the sheer amount applying make it super selective. It isn't a cram house once you're in I don't believe.
There are some really amazing state schools in North London, have you looked into those? There are still some open evenings left, you may be pleasantly surprised. The transport in N London can be tricky for some schools so a bit more detail about location would definitely help. I do know though that Northridge house is generally deemed as more nurturing and so is Channing. They all get great results but I don't think there is a school in London where kids don't have tutors so take the results with a pinch of salt.

@malmontar Thank you! Latymer would be a dream, but aren't there over 10 kids competing for one place? It's so difficult to get past the entry exam. My daughter will definitely be sitting it though.

We are in Haringey and our two closest schools are Woodside and St. Thomas More - both outstanding rated and I would not be at all unhappy for her to go to either, but my daughter did not even want to go to the open days. She went to the Greig Academy open day and hated it (for whatever reason).

I think it's her friends talking about all the selective schools that makes her think that unless she passes an entrance exam - she has somehow failed.

I mean this kindly, but if you have great state schools near you, you should go and see them regardless of whether or not you daughter wants to. I fact I'd say it's advisable not to take her in year 5 - far better for you to draw up your own shortlist of schools you want to apply to on her behalf, then take her to see them in Y6. It's your decision on where she goes for secondary, even if you want to take her opinion in account, your the one who needs to have the final say. I hope that doesn't sound overly harsh!

State boarding school? Burford, Cranbrook, Ripon Grammar?

I would go and look at Queenswood near Potters Bar. Not a hot house, no super selective exams and a broad education. Plenty from North London weekly board. Much more sensible than all this tutoring and angst!

Definitively keep an open mind at this stage and visit more schools, including those that don't fit the mould of those the other parents are interested in.

If you're in a Prep where everyone applies to (and seems to go to) highly selective schools, you can get a warped view of schools and decide perfectly good schools are rubbish, or disgard them without even looking. The children can do this too. Your DC might turn out to do better than you think (the prep should guide you as to what is realistic) but if your feeling is fairly accurate, you will have to start managing her expectations and encouraging her to consider and look at a wider range of schools,nwit bout feeling they are 'beneath' her. This might take some time.

At the end of the day though, you are the parent and you need to choose which schools you and later she looks at and applies to. Make it clear that you listen to her, but you are the parent and will choose. Knowing that can be quite freeing for you, but also for her too, because a 10 year old isn't in the position to make this choice - they can have views and express opinions, but the bigger issues and factors determining choices are often more complex than they will understand or can take responsibility for.

This phase should be about you gathering more information and doing visits and talking to her in a way to start introducing the idea that there are lots of schools out there and there are lots of good ones that neither of you have heard of yet. Point out no-one knows where they are going and everyone will apply to several and everyone will end up with a school.

@Zinnia Thank you. I agree with you and I did go and see Woodside High School (which I really liked), but I would hate for my daughter to feel inadequate compared to her friends at such a young age by not at least passing one of those entry exams into the selective schools. I'm just trying to figure out if there are any less demanding ones that she has a higher chance of passing.

Thank you! Great advice. Queenswood we will definitely look at and it's one that her Headmistress recommended we consider. The only tiny thing is that I would prefer a co-ed school to an all-girls school.

The thing is, everyone faces not getting places, when these schools are over-subscribed.

You really should speak to your Prep soon for advice. They will tell you what her ability is and which schools are realistic. They may well advise a banker (one she is pretty sure to get) a stretch (one she might get on a good day) and a couple in between. You then need to listen to what they say and not out her in for several schools she really doesn't have much chance of - it would be doing that, that would knock her confidence.

So back off from the schools she tells you (or the parents tell you) the other girls are applying to. Don't start with that list, start with a tailored list for her which the school guides you to. If she applies to sensible schools, she should get places. If she applies to inappropriate schools, she will be disappointed and it won't do her any favours. Be willing to recognise too, that some non-selective schools and some sate schools perform better than some selective independent schools. Simply taking an exam and paying fees doesn't automatically mean a better education. Her feeling sensitive about what other girls are doing or wanting to do and be the same cannot be the thing that guides you to where to apply.

@WombatChocolate We are having a meeting with the Headmistress in March 2020, but she has already indicated that although I should let my daughter sit all the super-selective exams, she is more likely to get into the less selective schools. She has recommended numerous independent schools to us, but many of them are all-girls schools, which I would rather avoid.

Here is a list I have compiled (based on recommendations from the Head of her prep and my own research)... Any thoughts are highly appreciated!

The highly academic schools my daughter wants to sit but is unlikely to pass:

1. Latymer
2. Henrietta Barnet (I don't even know if there is any point sitting this one and it's an all-girls school, but it is one she wants)
3. Habs Girls
4. Highgate

The independent schools she might have a better chance of getting into:

1. Mount House
2. Aldenham
3. Northbridge House
4. Princess Helena (recommendation from the Head at her school)

We are also looking at:

1. Queenswood
2. St Christopher
3. Kew House
4. Bales College
5. Prince Gardens Prep School (a new school as I understand it)
6. Royal Alexandra and Albert School (because my daughter is quite serious about her horse riding and I think this school offered it, but it's mostly a boarding school so a real long shot)

I'd think very few get all of the school so on your top list. There would be no shame in trying and not getting them......but you'd need others too. Most will have more of a banker as well as that top list too. And that's because even parents of the very clever know that something like 2800 apply for less than 100 places at HBS so the odds are really against them all.

She sounds like she's having a lot of tutoring - probably the equivalent of a day a week, on top of school. Do you really want to continue with that level of tutoring, especially if you don t think she's got a realistic chance. Doesn't doing lots of tutoring if it's not realistic set her up for more disappointment?

You will find a good school for her. You also need to get through this next period without making school admissions into the be-all and end-all and without setting her up for disappointment. Too much prep can make it all feel just so important and more crushing if it doesn't happen. Just a thought.

Another vote for Queenswood. It is becoming increasingly oversubscribed as parents realise you can get academic success without being in a hot house environment. Don’t be put off by the single sex thing - it’s a lovely environment where girls are encouraged to just be themselves. Days are long though but they offer flexi boarding from 1-5 nights a week. They also have a polo team!!!!

Princess Helena College is a little odd and not even slightly academic. Very nurturing though but yes, just slightly strange.

Depending where in London you are you might want to look at Berkhamsted. Direct train (30 mins) from Euston. Diamond structure so single sex from 11 to 16 then back to co-Ed but the boys and girls schools do a lot together. It’s the school you go to in Herts if you don’t get into one of the academic North London schools but still want an academic environment.

Aldenham is a good call too.

Having grown up in the area (I attended Gladesmore, which is now an amazing school but wasn't so much back then), I would never consider Woodside! Or Greig City actually. My two pence.

On the state school front, have you looked at Heartlands High School? If you're near to Woodside or St Thomas Moore then you're close to Heartlands. It's a new school but people seem to be quite impressed with it, so it's worth looking at if you're considering a state option imo.

@JayDot500 Ohh that's interesting about Woodside! I went to the open day and parents seemed to say how people are trying to move closer to the school to get in. I thought the open day was nice, but then all open days are. The fact that it's in a terrible area makes me wary about what classmates she would have. Is there anything about Woodside HS that makes it worse than the other schools in the area? Heartland is also close to us and I will definitely have a look at it as well.

Latymer is an interesting one. Although on paper, there are 2000 sitting for 198 places, this includes people who are out of catchment and will never get a place unless they can move in 3 months (few actually do). Hence out of that 2000, you have a chance if ranked in the top 500.

Henrietta - ignoring whether she would get in or not, would the school suit her? Girls travel vast distances (Surrey, Bucks etc.) and there is a lot of parental pressure to perform given the predominantly Asian culture. My advice would be to bother sitting the exam only if you like the feel of the school and would take the place.

Of the independents you mention, I only know some of them. Queenswood is a great call - good academics, great facilities, great reputation. Mount House is going through a lot of change - now mixed, non religious, new head.. It is non-selective so won't get the results others do (understandably). I'd say it's the same level as Aldenham on that front.

@XelaM not sure you got my PM but I agree with @JayDot500. Heartlands has a very mixed intake. They are getting lots of kids from Ally Pally end now that APS catchment is so tiny. This with the Wood Green mix is really nice and there is a large mix of middle class and working class, especially in the younger years.
Woodside I didn't like because of how pushy it was. I know families there currently and it is very stressful for the children and I would class it as a hot house state. The catchment is very deprived and a child with parents who can afford private could struggle but the pressure would worry me more tbh.

I cannot recommend Heartlands enough. Our DD started there in Sept and we have some friends further up the school. The communication is amazing as is the level of pastoral care. DD came from a very academic class with no confidence and she has changed to a bright happy girl. She knew no one and after a tough 3 days made some great friends and is going on the ski trip in Jan.

We also applied to Channing and KAS which are very different but we really loved Channing. They are very nurturing and we didn't get a hot house vibe at all. There's lots of girls there from crouch end/ally pally.

@FanDabbyFloozy Interesting about Latymer! I hadn't realised about the catchment. I thought their catchment was very wide. We are out of catchment for Dame Alice Owen, so at least that's one super-selective exam we can avoid.

I also forgot to mention Mill Hill County High School and North London Grammar. I'm looking at both. Not sure about North London Grammar, but I have heard (maybe unfairly?) that Mill Hill's exam isn't as demanding, although there are only 24 places!

To be honest though I didn't like Mill Hill at all when I had a tour there. It looked very shabby and run-down. Their sports fields were incredible though.

@XelaM are you sure you mean Mill Hill County (state school with very limited selective places) or Mill Hill schools (Inc Belmont), the independent schools?

The MH County exam is not as demanding as say HBS but in some ways that is worse as the standard is very high (high 130s). It also has music and dance spots but largely it is a non-selective school. I wouldn't travel from the Heartlands area (presuming where you are) for it frankly. The journey would be a nightmare for a start and most kids are local.

Belmont/Mill Hill schools are good independent options with wide coach routes. It is not very hard to gain a place despite the small number of places and many say it is a fine school indeed.

You could always try for a state option and switch to a school like Mill Hill at 13+ if that doesn't work out?

Unless you're being disingenuous about your dd's abilities, I think you're being pessimistic. If she's keeping up at a pushy academic prep school then I suspect she'll be fine anywhere but the very most academic secondary.

One of my children was near the top but not top of a very very mixed primary (think v high SEN and lots of kids on child protection register) and was very reluctant to even do 11+ i.e. did no work. She got in to the four N London schools she applied for and with a scholarship to Forest (is that too far? It's lovely and co-ed-ish). Her sister applied to one of the schools on your 'impossible' list and got in - again state school but with an August birthday. Top-ish of the class but I'm sure would be middling in a prep school.

Having said that I wouldn't bother with the state grammars unless she's got a reasonable chance and that you'd definitely take the place over a private. We did them with my eldest on a whim and despite the lack of preparation, his confidence really took a knock when he failed by a long way (then subsequently got into v selective privates). They just ruin the summer holidays and then you've got Christmas ruined if you subsequently do privates.

You may also have to compromise on the co-ed thing as there are loads more girls' schools.

Your dd is 10 and is refusing to look at state schools? Wow.

@FanDabbyFloozy I did mean Mill Hill County HS - the state school. The only reason I looked at it at was because one if the tutors we have claimed that all her kids had got in on the technical exam. I didn't like it at all though and like you say - the journey is not even worth it. I will look at the independent Mill Hill schools.

@Huffthemagicdragon Having come from a completely different schook system (Germany) I only have the parents of older siblings in my daughter's school to go by; and mist of them tell of the horrors of the exams that require years of tutoring!

So it's difficult for me to judge my daughter's chances. However, although she is in the top set for English (I don't know why) and the second set from the top for maths (she will be moved up this term I think as she's actually quite good at maths) - she has never been even close to being top of her class. But there are many very academic kids to whom it all comes easy. She's definitely not one of those, but she is very ambitious and has aspirations of Oxbridge even at this age (which i don't encourage!) because my younger brother recently graduated from there and is now doing a post-grad in Harvard. She really has it set in her head that this is where she wants to go and I would hate for her confidence to be completely crushed by all the rejections at the 11+ stage.

Oops, sorry for all the typos. Typing on my phone

@Huffthemagicdragon Forgot to add that my daughter's best friend is absolutely obsessed with Forest and that's where she wants to go. We haven't seen it yet, but I have heard it's lovely.

In an ideal world I would of course prefer to stip paying private school fees and woukd definitely take up a place at a school like Latymer over the independent schools. I tried to not get my daughter to fixated on Latymer or HBS because of the insane competition for those places.

Quite, Bertrand. Segregation/selection snobbery starts v young, and it is what has lead this country to the sh*thole it inhabits today.
NB This child's favourite, Henrietta Barnet, correct me if I'm wrong ladies, is actually a super-super-selective state grammar school.

Oh give it a rest @BertrandRussell. We all know how you feel on this topic. The kid is 10 and simply wants to go where her friends are going and wants to pass the exams she's been preparing for. It's not a crime nor is she making social commentary at age 10. How far from Alexandra Park School are you? The catchment is small but the list has tons of movement as a lot of parents in that catchment go private but don't give up the place until they've paid the private school deposit. The last distance offered is based on the first round of offers not the furthest distance of the last place offered.