SW Secondary schools advice needed

[SecondarySchoolNovice]

Dear mums, We are currently abroad and due to our work related transfer, we would move to UK next year. We are not UK residents so this is all a bit new to me.
My daughter is a very bright girl and she is excellent in English and Science. She is currently in the top 3 of her class in a British school here. So we are looking at her going to UK school system in Year 8 in 2020. I know that it is not a normal entry point but we have received confirmations for places in Year 8 from below schools.

• Croydon High School
• Sutton High School
• Streatham and Clapham High school
• Tormead school
• Woldingham school

We are planning to make visits to each of these schools to start the registration and assessment process. So I have few questions

• Can you please provide your feedback about any of these schools in terms of academic excellence and pastoral care.
• Another possibility (though not much preferred) would be to wait for Year 9 entry point for 2021 and only move to UK then. This is because I loved the likes of Caterham, Royal Russels, Reigate Grammar School and Kingston Grammar school and none of these are available for Year 8.

Do you think these are much better schools so its worth the wait.

I

BTW attainment 8 scores are useless for private schools as they don't include iGCSEs (or something like that)

I'm not sure how accurate the figures are in that table for private schools. Many private schools do at least some iGCSEs instead of standard GCSEs. The figures seem to ignore these completely as state schools are not allowed to do these exams. That must have an impact on the calculations.

Cross post Countess

I should say this is one years result and any school can have a blip year, you need to look over the past 3, which you can do on the website.
I think really all is shows is what we all know, just because a school gets the best results, this doesn't necessarily mean the school is better, rather the intake is more selective!

I would certainly not take these in isolation, the school has to be the right one for your child and only you know things like

• Will they be thrive and be happiest and most successful when at the top, middle or bottom of the cohort (academically) - if they get kicks from competition send them to a school that's a stretch for them, if they are someone who takes pride in being in the top sets etc and is easily disheartened, send them to a slightly less selective school.

• will they be happier in single sex or mixed

• Does the ethos and make up of the school fit with your family values (some are more draconian, some more laid back, some very monied, some not so much)

• Does the location work for you - they will have long days and a lot of travel isn't a good idea. Plus they need local friends, look at where the school intake comes from, most have breakdowns by post codes

• Does the school have a good provision for your child's interests

Obviously all this is much harder when coming from abroad! You could engage one of the companies that help you choose schools, they have relationships with all the schools and will be able to find out the likelihood of places coming up for you. EG Laidlaw Education are meant to be good, I know they can assess your child's abilities and personality and make recommendations and liaise with schools for you.

Value added scores don't work at some 6th forms. Wimbledon High loses loads of it's top girls to Kings so will never have a good value added score no matter what they do. Ibstock loses top performers to Kings, Westminster etc because it's still quite a new 6th form. The St Pauls schools are the only schools on that list who's value added I would not expect to be effected by 6th form entry and Hampton who let everyone stay on.

The other problem with value added is it is measuring the value from IGCSEs/GCSEs as if they are equal and this will throw out differences as private schools convert. DD's school swapped a few subjects this year and had quite a few issues. Ibstock only swapped the much maligned on MN IGCSE English exams for some Welsh board GCSEs and their A*/A results GCSE have halved! A friend's DC missed the cut off for 6th form by 1 point and she is raging. This could be bad preparation by the school or maybe MN is right and IGCSEs are a lot easier in which case the value added score is meaningless. So a big hit for this years GCSE results at Ibstock because everyone has to sit 2 English GCSEs but a huge boost to the value added score in 2 years.

I am attaching the GCSE table for Ibstock so you can see the effect of the IGCSE/GCSE conversion on their results. A level results still look ok though, 37.5% A* on English A level so I doubt it's the teaching. Everyone sits the same A levels so they are a much better indicator. I do think now that the GCSEs have removed course work there is no excuse for Indy schools to carry on with IGCSEs and they all need to convert.

www.ibstockplaceschool.co.uk/senior-school/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2019/09/GCSE-Results-2016-2019.pdf

www.ibstockplaceschool.co.uk/senior-school/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2019/09/A-Level-Results-2019.pdf

I'm not sure IGCSEs are likely to confuse matters.

However, you can see some schools consistently post very strong progress scores e.g. Epsom College. It's a shame these stats aren't available for prep schools and GCSE results. Having these easily available in the state sector makes spotting of 'academic excellence' very easy.

So you don't think a 50% drop in the 9-7 rate when a school swaps exams is in anyway indicative that the new exam is harder?

Sorry OP, I hadn’t realised that you had a fixed list of schools in mind. I thought you were asking for suggestions in the SW London region!

Thank you cake and countess for those stats and insight into Ibstock results. They do sit iGCSE as you say, so difficult to compare on that gov.schools website.

I agree that league tables such as these should be taken lightly and it should definitely be down to the feel of the school and if it’s right for your child.

OP- I know girls at all those schools except Croydon. They will all have bright girls and lots of opportunities. I wouldn't get bogged down in progress scores etc. Try and visit them all and go with gut feel. Went through it all with DD-loved some, indifferent to others and genuinely didn't like others. On paper most of them were fairly similar schools. And I wouldn't discount all girls. We did a complete u-turn on that once we had offers, re visited schools etc.

cakeisalwaystheanswer, looking at the results, it looks like English Lit is very strong at Ibstock. However, some subjects are weaker performing.

For comparison:

Ibstock posts 73.5% of A-A* at GCSE
A-Level 61% A-A* and 88% A-B

Epsom College 74% of A-A* (so a very close match)
A-Level 68% A-A* and 90% A-B

You can see where the higher progress scores come from - a fair few more A's vs B's.

PS I do realise that there are flaws in my method by it gives you the idea without me writing a 5000 word essay.

I'm also not saying that I wouldn't definitely avoid Ibstock but I'd be careful with the subjects/teachers. Definitely a fab choice for English Lit.

JoJoSM2 I think you are splitting hairs! There really isn’t much in it!

As cakeisalwaystheanswer said before, the GCSE results were down this year for Ibstock (last year was 84% A*A). Also, I know that lots of high achieving girls from schools such as LEH like to transfer to Epsom at 6th form for co-ed. That will obviously boost their results!

Poor OP isn’t interested in Ibstock (that was my error) so I don’t really know why it matters to them now anyway!

Shame that you feel you have to judge a school by its results... maybe you are a teacher?! 😉

Firstly Ibstock's results GCSE results have taken a big hit this year because of the change to GCSE English so usually there would be a more of a difference between Epsom and Ibstock in GCSE results.

Secondly, are you aware that Epsom has a big intake of top performing Chinese students for 6th form? It is rightly very popular with the chinese for 6th form boarding because it is a fantastic school with amazing facilities. But taking in so many top performers does skew the A level results upwards.

So you are comparing a school that loses it's top performers to more selective schools in central London and a a school that has a big intake of top performing students for sixth form. It is hardly surprising the latter has a better value added score.

I am just trying to make the point that value added scores are not as scientific as they claim. IGCSEs/GCSEs are not a level playing field so not a good indicator for results or for value added scores. And value added scores are meaninnless for school with big intakes or losses for 6th form. It is probably best just to look at the actual A level results because they are at least an exam that everyone state/Indy sits.

And can I say that I have 3DCs in Indys. I have always swallowed the whole IGCSEs are so much harder waffle (don't start me on IB) and I do actually think they were prior to reform. But not anymore, Indys need to change.

Sorry OP this is mostly off topic for you but I would hold out for Caterham as I have never met a DC from there who doesn't love it.

So how do they achieve these attainment scores? I had always assumed it was based on the indivduals sitting the exams (ie look at their GCSE results and what the normal expectation would be at A level given those, if it does better then +ve score, worse then -ve)

It's an utterly pointless metric if it just compares the GCSE people with the A level people and the two aren't the same!

TBH most of these metrics are a bit stupid really. Any of the schools mentioned are good schools at which a child who is going to work hard will do well! I would look more at the fit of the child to the school, if a child is happy at a school they will do better, largely speaking. Obv there are always exceptions.

CountessDracula, yes, for the purpose of the calculations on the gov website, they look at the results of specific students.

And yes, I'm a teacher (turned a SAHM) and like a good set of numbers. But wouldn't say I'm too obsessed with league tables and as a mother I've been looking at a range of options for DC and have actually discounted anywhere too hot housey (mind you, he's 1 and we're looking for his first school).

Thanks, that makes more sense.
So therefore it doesn't matter if you lose some of your higher achieving pupils, they are monitoring what the sixth form has achieved with the students it has and what value has been added for them. So they are worth considering (along with everything else)?

I don't think you're right JoJO? The govt website is vague and just says

"These figures tell you how much progress students who studied A levels at this school or college made between the end of key stage 4 and the end of their A level studies, compared to similar students across England."

That sounds more like an average figure than one individually calculated and I have specificallyasked at open days and been told that it is the average cohort score, although havinh said that I've been lied to before. I would also expect the govt to calculate the score itself from the GCSE results posted two years earlier because otherwise they are reliant on the school themselves to post the correct figure. And who would audit the Indy's figure? they are not OFSTED inspected and ISC inspections are a joke so they could post what they like. Value added works fine for state schools who's student base remains constant and who follow the rules but I can guarantee that Indy schools manage to spin it for marketing purposes and as I have said previously IGCSEs are not a good indicator of performance at 16 anymore.

I am actually surprised bearing in mind the age of your DS you are looking at senior schools so closely. They could all be closed by the time he reaches the right age.

This explains briefly how it’s calculated

www.schoolsweek.co.uk/NOIPRINT.pdf

And this is all the technical detail (over 100 pages of it)

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/819734/16-18_Accountability_Measures_Technical_Guide_July_2019.pdf

PS It’s nothing to do with school inspectors.

But the report is for figures from 2019. And it specifically states that for Independents from this year they will source the results directly from the GCSE awarding bodies so they obviously don't trust them to report the right numbers either. And then as I keep saying it is using GCSEs and IGCSEs as the base and they are not equivalent. Value added scores are meaningless for Indys and so are GCSE results, actual A level results sat be everyone are a much better indicator.

The report specifically states:

Independent schools11.1. The completion and attainment and retention measures are not calculated for independent schools. This is because the Department does not have access to the relevant data.11.2. Disadvantaged measures are not calculated for independent schools.11.3. For the attainment measures, level 3 value added, and English & maths progress measures information is sourced from awarding bodies. This allows us to calculate these headline measures for independent schools.11.4. Destination Measures for independent schools are not included in performance tables due to more limited information on students causing low coverage. They continue to be produced in the statistical release

Yes, the guide is very up to date. Personally, I can completely see why they wouldn’t calculate disadvantage measures or others for the independent sector.

Yes, the information included in the calculations is taken from the exam boards - seems the only reasonable way to do it to have independent, accurate information?

Prior attainment- iGCSE vs GCSE... Both are included in the calculation but If you don’t believe they’re comparable, it stands to reason you won’t think the progress scores are accurate.

Personally, I’d expect an A* GCSE student to get an A at A-Level whether it was a GCSE or iGCSE. So I find progress scores useful.

State schools don’t do iGCSEs these days, indies tend to use iGCSEs and GCSEs in about equal measure but there will be some variability between individual institutions. However, on this thread we’ve only looked at indies, all of which do both.

I am very sceptical of any information provided by private schools. I am sure that this is very scientifically calculated for state schools and everything is by the book, but the report itself says that they can't get the same information for private schools and if they can't track fall out rates etc I don't see how they can track the progress for each individual pupil.
I am a former Kings parent and became very cynical because I have never seen any school bend results as much as they do. For example Kings always posts on their website early release exam results tables which shows their results way up high and never mention that the tables exclude similarly selective schools St Pauls, SPGS etc who release their results later. Or they decide to exclude girls schools despite having a co-ed 6th form that takes in 60 of the brightest girls in the country. No state school would get away with that kind of nonsense. I always tell people looking at results to use the govt tables because they are the only ones to trust but the only column I completely trust is the points per entry. There is too much subjectiveness in the other columns like excluding non facillitating subjects which is pretty much old hat now.
One thing I have learnt is that I can still be astounded by the amount of monitoring state schools endure, there really is no place to hide. I will be a lot more sympathetic with state school teacher friends when they moan about the bureacracy. I am surprised anyone has anytime to teach.

We were looking for a school that my daughter could enjoy and do academically well. We looked into 3 private schools and one grammar (Tiffins). We'd noticed LEH was undeniably a top academic school. However, the fake arrogance around the parents and their young little darlings was a source of concern for us. We also heard from a GP friend who works near LEH that she often deals with young girls from LEH and boys from Hampton School with serious psychological issues due to the immense pressure on them. By pure coincident, I was chatting with our GP, who asked what schools were we considering and I mentioned LEH & St Catherine's in Bramley. She replied that her daughter went to LEH but, emerged as too snooty for her taste. Then she continued to say that her niece, who went to the same prep school as her daughter's, went to St Catherine's and she emerged as a humble and confident young lady. Both have achieved exactly the same results and both went to Oxford. I remember I came out happy that she had noticed LEH . In fact at the time we hadn't even turned up to the opening day at St Catherine's, since our focal point was on LEH.
So, we decided to go for the entry test at St Cat's. My daughter had started at St Cat's in 2013(I think), initially, she was unfamiliar with the school as it was a new environment for a delicate and sensitive girl. Following few weeks, she evolved to love the school, so much so that whenever we wanted to tease her, we used to ask her if she wanted to change school, and her was always with a determined "No, please don't" .
The staff are amazing. The head of the school is a determined lady who typifies everything about a strong headmistress. On the parents opening day reminding the new incomers and their parents alike by saying "I am happy to tolerate anything but unkindness".
She consistently pursued the policy of keeping the girls' feet on the ground and teach them to be kind and humble. Housemistress, Mrs Meredith, is a caring, watchful and assertive lady. She knows her students the same way she knows her children. She truly gets out of her away along with so many teachers to support my fragile daughter. The staff are very caring and always there for her. There is no "drug culture" and certainly no "Little Jamaica" there. Bullying is non existing as the staff at all levels are extremely swift with taking serious measures to counter any whiff of it.
In general, girls are courteous and polite to each other. The school's atmosphere is very embracing and warm. Girls are dealt with gently and courteously. So stay away from St Cats if your daughter is the type who causes troubles. The staff are merciless if there is any issue of rudeness or bad behaviors. They would not hesitate to throw girls away, if they have issues with their attitude.
There is a delicate and healthy competitive Ora around the school's academic atmosphere, which enabled my daughter to achieve grade 9 ( Or equivalent) in ALL of her 12 GCSE subjects. She worked hard, but enjoyed every moment of it. All staff were there for her to support her.
Mr Nguyen is an amazing Mathematics tutor, who managed to get his girls to love Maths, via his unorthodox method of teaching.
I am grateful that I had sent my daughter there, as she has emerged as a humble yet confident young lady.
She is in her 1st year of her A Levels and still enjoying it.
If your daughter has the academic potential, then I would strongly advise of St Cat's.

Grade 9 in GCSE is higher than A.