I need someone to shine a light

[tigermoth]

I feel I am wallowing in ignorance. I just do not really understand how pupils progress from year 7 to sixth form and further education. Ok I know the basics. They take GCSEs then A levels, but I fear there's more to know.

My son is at a grammar school. There seems to be little communication to parents about the bigger picture. I just feel we are somehow expected to know!

For instance, I am not really clear on how imnportant year 9 SATS are. I don't if my son will be allowed to freely choose his GCSE preferences for year 10. How much do his year 9 exam results matter? Will he be allocated GCSE subjects according to how well he does in them? What if he really wants to do a certain subject but does badly in his year 9 exam. And what's all this business about streaming certain maths sets so the maximum grade they can get at GCSE is a 'B'?

I feel I know the primary school system well as ds1 has gone through it. That knowledge really helps me support ds2 who is in year 3 at primary. Also, it's much easier to talk to other parents as there's lots of parent contact at primary school.

I have hardly met any parents at my son's secondary school - far fewer opportunities to meet - and we have only had two parent/teacher evenings in two years, so fewer organised opportunities to chat to the teachers.

I really feel I am floundering now ds1 is about to start year 9. He's the sort of boy who needs to be constantly motivated at home. IME this can only work best if I am sure of the details and ds1 knows I know! Ds1 needs to be kept on course, but I don't know exactly what course we are steering to IYSWIM.

Next term, I will talk to his teachers about my worries but I don't expect to get the full picture from them. IME it is also incredibly useful to talk to outsiders who are familiar with secondary education system and also parents who have gone through the whole process.

I just wondered if I am alone in feeling like this. And if any kind people can offer me some guidance I'd be really grateful.

Hope you get some good advice, tm. It all sounds like a minefield to me. My policy so far has been to completely ignore SATs but that would change pronto at secondary if they affected GCSE options! Hopefully some people in the know will be along soon.

Blimey tigermoth, you are in a pickle! We are about to start the secondary school thing in September and so far, I'm really pleased with the schools communication with us (and we're not even there yet!) Does you ds have a year head you could talk to rather than his teachers? The trouble with talking to people that have already been through it, is that the whole system changes so often, due to the government, something that was right last year, may be completely different by the time ds is leaving. What about looking on their school website? You won't get definate answers, but you may be able to find the right person to talk to. Good luck.

Hi scummy! Yes, that's the crux of the matter. Help!

DS1 is going into Y9 in September plus they move schools at this age (3 tier system) so having to get grips with lots of new things.

The SATS cover English, Maths and Science which are compulsory subjects anyway so no matter what his results are he'll be doing those in Y10.

Most schools around here tend to have an 'Options' booklet and a parent's meeting sometime in Y9, where you will get the chance to talk to the tutors about your son's subject choices.

Thanks Maureen. The website doesn't go into this sort of detail. I will be talking to ds's teachers, but I know they will have to toe the school line and may not give me the full picture. ie when ds1q did his 11+ I had to get advice from outside his primary school as our LEA does not do the 11+ and the teachers therefore would not advise on it.

Also I want to know more before talking to his teachers so I can ask the right questions and not appear too ignorant.

Make an appointment to talk to the year head - in my experience schols are happy to talk to parents - education is a three way thing,the child, the schol and the parents.

The yr 9 SATS will measure progress in Eng, maths and science since yr6. Because of school league tables, some schools will stream - because they are maeasured on the number of A-C GCSE passes pupils achieve, it is `safer' to only enter a child for an exam they will pass.

Dn't worry talk the school or look on the DCFS website for more info www.dfes.gov.uk/

Saffy, I hope we get something similar.

The thing is, what happens if there are 60 places for children to study history but 80 children want to do this at GCSE. Does the school simply select the 60 children who scored the highest marks in year 9?

Not sure - imho the biggest problem is for example if you want to do history and geography and they are both timetabled for the same time and day.

Tigermoth - I too have a boy starting year 9.

I think we have to assume that the sats go some way to helping the GCSE decisions - or at least let your son think that. That way he will be motivated (with any luck)

This is what happens at dd1's school.
Apart from the compulsory GCSEs (English, Maths, Science, ICT) all the other subjects are put into 4 boxes. You then choose 1 subject from each box.
You put 2 reserve subjects incase there is not space on your chosen ones. You may select an extra one and it will depend on your ability in that subject if you are allowed to do it.
The way it fell for her there was one box where she hated all the subjects so ended up doing Spanish and another box where she had set her heart on three subjects and so had the task of deciding which two she had to drop (Geography and Cookery) and which one to select (History).
It's not easy!
The year 9 SATS are quite important as they determine the sets for the GCSEs.

You have to make the decisions based on their interest in the subject and take the teacher's view into account as well because you have to decide at the beginning of yr9 - before the SATs

Tigermoth, another boy starting year 9 here too. I have gleaned a some info from parents with slightly older children, but am still rather feeling my way as you are.

This is the year they choose their GCSE options, but I don't think the end of year exams or SATs has a huge impact. However, the maths result might well influence whether or not he is put in a set that does 'higher tier' maths (ie able to achieve higher grades) - although at a grammar school I'd have expected nearly everyone to do that. The science result might influence whether he is allowed to sit seperate sciences or is restricted to the dual award combined science.

To be honest, the school should already have a very good idea of his abilities already, so the actual results might only be important for the borderline cases.

On other subjects, as already mentioned I think timetabling constraints are usually more limiting for choices, but it would be worth asking if any courses do get over-subscribed and if so how they choose who does them. In some schools children have to put a backup choice, so the decision would be made based on accomodating most children with their first & scond choice subjects rather than taking the most able in a group, but it might not always work that way.

I can't help but can sympathise. Ds's school is reasonable about keeping parents informed, but it's just a different system up here and as someone else says it changes all the time, so I can't even use what little knowledge I gleaned when my stepchildren were going through it. Sigh. I guess we'll all get there in the end!

tigermoth this all depends on the school and I think individual schools do different things. Mine are at grammar school (and we are currently on number 4).

As others have said, his SATs results may determine which sets he is in for GCSEs. GCSEs come in 3 papers- Higher, Intermediate and Foundation. The school decides which levels it offers (not all schools have Intermediate for example) and which level your son will sit. If he sits Foundation then the highest mark he can possibly achieve at GCSE is a C. For Intermediate it is a B. The Higher paper enables him to achieve an A or A* But he "fails" if he doesn't get a certain mark (can't remember exactly how this works but for this reason they won't enter a boy for Higher tier if he hasn't got a good chance of getting an A).

The option thing at our school works as others have described it. Due to timetabling constraints they "band" certain subjects and you normally get to choose one subject from each block. So many subjects are compulsory that there is very little actual choice, but again depends on the school. Ours has a compulsory modern foreign language so you actually get to choose only 3 subjects. In a way it's better because at least you don't get to make a disastrous wrong choice! The choices are rarely dictated by the SATs results.

You asked "The thing is, what happens if there are 60 places for children to study history but 80 children want to do this at GCSE. Does the school simply select the 60 children who scored the highest marks in year 9?" This doesn't happen at our school. Basically the pupils put in their choice of 3 subjects, with 2 as backup, and the school try to come up with a timetable that accommodates as many kids as possible. Something like history would be timetabled in more than one of the option blocks. I think in our school this year only 3 boys didn't get their first choice and had to have one of their reserve subjects (I'm a Governor- you don't find out as a parent )

Don't worry- and speak to the Head of Year

Thanks for the info everyone. I remember that timetabling played some part in my O level choice when I was at school, so a timely reminder.

Very reassuring to read, evenhope, that your school organises the timetable around pupils' preferences - hope it's as true at our school. Thanks for that 'inside information'

Wheresthehamster, is it really true for most schools that you have to make GCSE option decisions early in year 9? Blimey, that's in no time at all!

For Maths and Science they may use the SATs results to do the setting for yr10, but most schools are more likely to use the internal evidence and opinion that they have. (The English results are out too late to use this way anyway.)

SATs results may also be used to set targets. So if a child gets a 6 or 7 in SATs, they might be assumed to be heading for an A at GCSE, and if this looks as though it's slipping at the end of yr10 this might be picked up and pushed; but if the same child underperformed at SATs and got a Level 5, they might be assumed to be heading for a C, and not be picked up/pushed in yr10 iyswim.

But a 'good' school should be tracking pupils' progress, and monitoring appropriately irrespective of SATs results.

As far as options are concerned different schools sort them out at different times.

The one piece of advice I would give is, if you are not satisfied when options are sorted out - i.e. if he is not offered his preferences then do feedback and complain, as sometimes things can be sorted out and jiggled ... all things come to those who are awkward and complain!

Very true, roisin. And positively phrased complaints can be helpful for everyone in the long term, I think.

As ds tends to pull out all the stops only at the last minute, I hope he's put in streams which allow the possibility of him getting high grades.

Ah well, we're only about halfway through the school holidays, so I will no obsess about it any more, and will take a look at that website mentioned by pidgysmum.

Do you know what percentage of students get A grades in Maths and English? Schools will give you this information, if it's not already available in the prospectus.

The secondary I work at is non-selective, but many of the top % of potential students choose to go elsewhere iyswim. And we still put 25-50% of students for higher level GCSE in English (and I would assume similar for Maths/Science).

If a grammar school is taking, say, the top 25% of the population; by inferrence I would expect them all to be taking Higher papers in everything.

But I may be wrong. I don't know anything about grammars. What happens if you get in, and then fail to make expected progress. There must be a bottom set even in a grammar. But I would expect the bottom set would be of a very high standard compared to some other schools. Maybe a very few students would do a Foundation paper in Maths or English if it is a particularly weak subject for them.

TM, we know someone at church at one of the other grammars. Hers have all done GCSEs in the past three or so years, do you want me to ask her what the school will volunteer and what you have to winkle out of them? Hers run the gamut of "brainiac" to "could do better", so she might even be able to reveal that there is a differentiated, SATs-influenced approach (although I'd like to think not).
Your post shows how comfy it all is while our children are at primary, methinks

I agree completely Marina. Being a secondary parent is so different from primary. Teenagers tend to be less communicative with their parents anyway, yet many secondary schools are very poor at communication too.

Absolutely, Roisin. Usually ds is good at relaying information but occasionally 'forgets' to give me leaflets from school if he thinks it's something I don't need to know about.

Even at this grammar school, some of the maths sets are designed to enable pupils to get a 'B' as a maximum top mark AFAIK. I know this is definitely true of another local grammar school. Ds is ok at maths and has really improved this year - not a maths whizz but I somewhere in the middle.

Marina, thanks for the offer - when you have a chance to talk to your friend, I'd be really grateful to hear what she has to say. Yes, secondary school is a lot less cosy.

A couple of teenagers I know were allowed to sit BOTH higher and lower tier maths by their school this year (think it might have been the first year it's been allowed). That way they could have the insurance of an OK grade from the easier paper and also the chance of a higher one from the harder paper.