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Secondary education

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Would this work? GCSE remarking

22 replies

TeenPlusTwenties · 17/09/2019 18:29

I've been watching the threads on getting GCSE remarks with interest as DD2 is y10.
I don't remember 'back in the day' being told what mark I had for my O levels, so have no idea how close I was to boundaries.

Would this work now:?

A) Any overall grade that ends up within 3 marks either side of a grade boundary is automatically rechecked before grades are issued.
B) Students/Parents/Teachers not told the exact marks for the exams.
C) Papers not returned to look at until after remark deadline

Would this solve speculative remarks, but still mean that where students/teachers really think the grade is likely to be wrong they can still ask for a review (or all papers)? (eg expecting a 7, got a 4).

Would this be 'fairer' on pupils from less affluent parents who can't afford to pay for speculative remarks just on the off chance?

(This is more of a thought experiment really, I can't see it happening.)

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SansaSnark · 17/09/2019 19:33

My issue with (A) is that it's already a tight turn around to get papers marked in time. If a lot of papers had to be rechecked in full, exam boards would either need extra markers (who they have to pay and the costs would be passed on) or extra time.

I can see where you're going with this, but a lot of schools will pay for remarks for students who are close to the boundary, still. Equally, when I was at school, you couldn't look at a paper before you got it remarked, and people still put in for remarks.

I think when you have uni places hanging on grades and schools are under pressure for their progress figures, you will always have people wanting remarks.

Personally, in some subjects, I think exam boards could do more to get the confidence of parents, teachers and students.

Duvetday8 · 17/09/2019 19:36

That would be very expensive to do and difficult to find enough examiners to do that level of work as well when the turn around for regular marking is already so tight.

TeenPlusTwenties · 17/09/2019 19:57

I was thinking we could use the £350million from the side of that bus.Grin

If money and time weren't constraints, would it be a 'fairer' system?

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BoneyBackJefferson · 18/09/2019 06:56

Thinking about B

How would teachers now how well they are teaching the subject and where the weaker areas are?

BoneyBackJefferson · 18/09/2019 07:02

I should add that I know there is the examiners notes etc. but they are very general.

SoupDragon · 18/09/2019 07:04

I was thinking we could use the £350million from the side of that bus.

Unfortunately, that was sent for a re-mark and came back as £18.76.

gwilt · 18/09/2019 07:07

No.
Three students I know sent for remarks.
They went up by 7, 21 and 24 respectively.
This is certainly not typical, because several others did not change, but clearly possible.

FrameyMcFrame · 18/09/2019 07:11

DD's school pays for remarks that are within 3 uma's of the next grade.

She had 4 paid for by school and all came back unchanged.

LyraParry · 18/09/2019 07:36

I like A. But it would need an overhaul of the marking system - ideally each examiner would need to mark fewer papers so it could be done quicker. That, in turn, would mean examiners need to be paid more per paper because lots wouldn't bother if the total money paid was reduced and you'd need to recruit more people (my subject always has a shortage as it is). And then you'd need to pay people for the reviews.

A good idea, imo, but an expensive one.

TeenPlusTwenties · 18/09/2019 07:48

Boney By getting papers back, but only after a remark deadline, teachers can still do analysis.

Gwilt People who felt under graded can still ask for remarks, but they would need to do it kind of 'knowing' they are grade 7 standard not say grade 5.

I know this would disadvantage some students. But it would be a different set from those disadvantaged now which I suspect, but have no evidence of, to be the less well off, as they are the ones who can't afford to take a punt on remarking.

Also, it would take the people who shouldn't have got that 7 or whatever down to their correct grade, which currently never happens as who in their right mind would ask for a remark when only 2 points above a threshold. So in a way it is fairer there too. (*Provided my DC weren't impacted of course. Grin).

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catndogslife · 18/09/2019 14:08

With reference to option A the period used for actual marking is already short enough. Most of the marking takes place over a 2-4 week window whereas there are 2-3 months between the exam being taken and the results being issued. Shortening the marking period any more would make it even more difficult for current teachers to mark as well as teach.

ArthurtheCatsHumanSlave · 18/09/2019 16:25

If you are looking at 3 marks either side of boundaries, in DD's case that would be half of her exams, and I suspect many, many DC's would be similar. With the boundaries themselves only being 10 or so marks apart, you could be re-checking 75% of papers. Not feasible when we now have so many levels.

I think we have to trust teachers, who can get a view of the marking on-line now, and if they see an unusual mark, or a discrepancy between papers, then go for it, however if the paper is marked consistently and reasonably, the advice would probably be to accept the grade.

As an aside, I am very jealous of schools paying for re-marks. Just cost me £135 for three papers.

BoneyBackJefferson · 18/09/2019 17:00

TeenPlusTwenties

You did say not get told the "exact marks for exams" which is different from get the marks back after remark.

TeenPlusTwenties · 18/09/2019 18:19

Boney I did, you are quite right. (but it's not what I meant Smile)

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Witchend · 18/09/2019 18:39

I was thinking we could use the £350million from the side of that bus.

Unfortunately, that was sent for a re-mark and came back as £18.76.
Grin

Back to the subject in question:
I kind of agree with you. I think it's a way of giving the people with ready money a second bite of the cherry. As I said to dd when explaining why I felt like this: If every subject she'd come back 2 marks from the grade up we could have risked wasting all that money on the basis that she'd have gone up in 2-3 subjects.
I know other people for whom risking one paper remarking (at roughly £40) would have meant not eating for them that week. And the fact they'd get the money back is totally irrelevant. They wouldn't have had the money that week to eat.

However: With dd I have over GCSE/A-level put back in two papers, both 2 marks off going up, and both went up. (statistics/further maths)
With the GCSE it was a little bit of a stab in the dark. She'd usually been getting higher on that paper, and so we decided to risk it.
With the further, the teacher had looked at the papers and told her than on one paper she should definitely go up 2 marks (she'd lost 2 marks for accuracy because she'd multiplied out a bracket 2 lines earlier than the mark scheme) and another paper would definitely go up 1 and might go up 2. So we put the first in.

Now to answer your suggestions:
A) 3 marks seems too much to me. That's 6 marks per boundary. There aren't spare examiners to do that really. It would have been, out of dd's 16 GCSEs, I think 6 of them would need to be looked at. (both 3 above and 3 below). And if they were altered, then surely they would need to be looked at again, to see whether the first or the second was more accurate? I see your point, but practically it would cost too much and take too much time.

B) I have 2 thoughts on this. I don't think we knew, but the teachers did. I think less emphasis on boundaries etc did make it more relaxing for me. Otoh dd1 is very hot on such things, I suspect dd2 and ds will pass through the exams without a clue, nor bothering too much.
However by knowing you are up to 3 marks off, then actually it does put the position where you can choose to have it relooked at-so then it does give a second opinion as per suggestion A. Maybe free for people on PP who are up to 2 marks off would be a fair evener?

It's also useful for the teacher to know whether their whole class just missed the boundaries, or whether something's gone wrong and they're way down. Also I can imagine for A-levels you will have times the school says "we don't normally take people on a 6, but as you only missed by 1 mark..."

I think you would also get some people who deserve to go up, especially 5 to 6, who won't want to risk it going down to a 4, even if they expected a 7 or higher.

C) Actually this I would totally disagree with. If they can see the paper they have the opportunity to spot errors like the one above. It also means that someone who does struggle to afford it can look at the paper and say "remark paper 2" rather than putting them all in and hoping (for 2/3 x the price depending on papers) and also be able to see when it's worth it, and when perhaps it's not.
I think being able to see the papers will result in generally fairer marks.

  1. It means that the examiners have to potentially be able to justify why they gave a lower mark, making them more careful in the first place.
  2. Because if an error is seen then a school will be far more likely to be prepared to pay for an error they can see, which helps those whose parents are either disinterested or unable to afford it.
Piggywaspushed · 19/09/2019 07:10

My DS had an inexperienced Spanish teacher in a one person team (also lazy). I think relying on that teacher to guess that his Spanish A level might be wrong would not work!

He was 6 marks off the next grade up in A Level. We put in for a remark because we knew this. He went up by 12.

Under your suggestion at A, this would not have been checked.

I agree the system is unfair on the less savvy and less accurate. I have no solution. Ofqual does not think there is a problem because they recently declared that two different grades could both be an accurate reflection of student ability.

I think there is a problem in many subjects with the checks and balances put in place during marking.

noblegiraffe · 19/09/2019 08:56

D) get teachers to do the checking for free by giving them access to the exam papers as Edexcel do.

In maths there are certainly teachers who now routinely the day after results day log on and check every paper near a grade boundary. They must get the whole cohort to give permission just in case.

This has massive workload implications for teachers and is something I’m not particularly happy about though.

Piggywaspushed · 19/09/2019 09:19

My accurate above is meant to say affluent !

Piggywaspushed · 19/09/2019 09:21

And I agree with noble : there is a massive expectation on teachers to sift through all of this, and if the marks aren't on the certificates the DCs get, it is completely down to a teacher to find all this out. Getting into some secure websites is like safe cracking. Navigating them is like getting through the North West passage!

Add to that, a school like mine , which has 425 students in a year 11 year group and it's a herculean labour.

I do like mixing my metaphors!!

TeenPlusTwenties · 20/09/2019 18:16

So what if no one was ever allowed papers back?
No extra work for teachers. Smile

So only go for a remark if the student/parent/teacher reasonably expected a higher grade.

(It would mean people retaking couldn't see where they went wrong, and teachers couldn't see where their classes lost marks.)

If there were going to be fewer re-marks because of the reviews upfront, then the results days could be put back by a week.

ps It's OK, I'm not really advocating this. (I think.)

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Piggywaspushed · 20/09/2019 19:00

I see what you are saying but I am not sure how you define a 'reasonable expectation' !

TeenPlusTwenties · 20/09/2019 19:06

'reasonable expectation' = been getting 7s in mocks/tests, suddenly comes out with a 4 and student has no idea why.

'reasonable expectation' =/= 'was rather hoping for an 8 but got a 7, and generally was getting 6/7s in mocks/tests.

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