More money for teachers plus stricter discipline in schools - Tory leak

[noblegiraffe]

A government document leaked today suggests plans for pay rises for teachers and support for stronger discipline in schools including mobile phone bans. The exemption for outstanding schools from the Ofsted inspection cycle will also be lifted.

There may be concerns about the mention of the use of ‘reasonable force’ as part of disciplinary measures. This is likely to simply be a restatement that yes, teachers are allowed to restrain violent pupils.

www.theguardian.com/education/2019/aug/27/leaked-documents-reveal-tories-dramatic-plans-for-schools

Nothing there seems particularly dramatic, it just shows Dom Cummings is back in charge continuing the Gove era policies.

No. It is reasonable to use force to intervene and pull someone off if they’re hurting someone. There are ways to escort pupils that don’t involve dragging them by the scruff of the neck and tbh I’d expect heads to be trained in restraint techniques.

That’s my gut feeling anyway. I’ve got no expert insight into this!

I think that ‘reasonable force’ is in the guidelines to counter the oft-held misconception that teachers are not allowed to touch pupils in any way.

The HT I witnessed drag the kid by the scruff of the neck felt secure, justified - I bitterly regret not reporting it - but I had my own issues with the way the school were behaving and admit I got my kids out as soon as I could.
Reasonable force and strictness are approaches that are easily abused and I wonder how many of the parents who object to reasonably soft forms of discipline currently employed by schools, do so as a knee jerk reaction to their own school days when teachers often abused kids both verbally and physically.

Here’s the government guidance on reasonable force in schools (this is not a new thing, despite the leak!) assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/444051/Use_of_reasonable_force_advice_Reviewed_July_2015.pdf

tbh I’d expect heads to be trained in restraint techniques
Would you?
I presume and hope that you're not involved in education or involved with caring for children.

Child Abuse is illegal in civilised countries.

Using violence on children as a form of punishment was made illegal in britain, thankfully, through our membership of the EU.

This form of Child Abuse is very popular with the tory leadership right now, hence its inclusion in recent 'educational proposals'

Obviously it was also a policy of the ukips and the brexit party, but fortunately they have never managed to gain a seat in our parliament.

I recall seeing a HT drag an 8 year old by the scruff of his neck to his office and proceed to scream at him in a very violent manner - was that reasonable? It didn't feel like it at the time

Sounds like a criminal offence, ABH or GBH.

Hope it was reported to the police.

I'm confused woman. Are you saying using restraint techniques is child abuse? Are you saying pulling two children apart in a fight is child abuse?

I think we all agree the description of the head's behaviour is not 'reasonable'.

A poll recently showed the vast majority of teachers do not want to exercise any kind of force at all on students . We would rather not be in that situation. When teachers and headteachers say we are not given enough power over behaviour policy, we do not mean we want to abuse the children.

As noble says the guidelines are not new. I had cause to check them recently and found them very vague. Personally, I think it best if teachers never touch students at all, but I know not everyone agrees, and of late many people have supported a handshaking, high fiving, cuddling when upset culture.

I think it best if teachers never touch students at all

What if a student is harming another? Or throwing objects or attempting to jump off tables?

What do you expect a teacher to do then? Walk away?

green. I am a teacher! No need to shout at me. I a defending us against woman who thinks we all want to beat children!

I would like those situations not to arise, obviously. In case a, no as a 5ft 3 female, I would not physically touch students. Teachers who have done this in our school recently have been injured and I am not risking my own physical safety.

In case b, why would you have to touch a student who was throwing something? I don't get how that would help.

Case c , I'd probably let the silly sausage jump off the table. Can't say I have encountered case c.

Under no circumstances would I risk harm to myself.

I have intervened in fights before by placing myself in between students. Not something I like doing. Pretty sure that's what the police do. A teacher pushing kids aside might end up escalating things inadvertently as young people in an aggressive state of mind become more aggressive, I have found, when pushed back by either a teacher or nay kind of peacemaker.

So, obviously, as I said , in my ideal world, no teacher would lay hands on a (secondary) student. I can't see how it would usually help.

I understand that 'restraint' is legal in schools in britain now.

That it is needed at all, is an indictment of how awful british education and the lives lived of mainly working class british school kids is atm, but that's another argument.

What is appalling is the proposal to bring back violence against children as a punishment. Beating children is Child Abuse no matter how one frames it.

It was made illegal in britain in 1986, thanks to the EU and ECHR legislation

But it's clearly a vote winner........

What is appalling is the proposal to bring back violence against children as a punishment

The document I linked to makes it very clear that force against children as a punishment is totally unacceptable.

Yes, there's no mention of it as a punishment.

It's to be used as it is now (which is in extremis) but seems to possibly extend powers in taking phones and bag searches.

Of course there needs to be a reasonable force policy. How can you protect yourself and the children in your care otherwise?

There may be concerns about the mention of the use of ‘reasonable force’ as part of disciplinary measures. This is likely to simply be a restatement that yes, teachers are allowed to restrain violent pupils

Restraint is not Discipline.

It is not a 'restatement' .

What it is, is old ukip, now tory party policy.

Violence as punishment is abhorrent and still illegal in schools.

Clearly a vote winner with a certain demographic though.

woman you are barking up the wrong tree, honestly. Teachers do not want a reintroduction of physical punishment. Most don't even actually want restraint in schools.

People on two threads have copied and pasted the documentation for you. Have you read it?

You need to provide me with evidence that the government plans to reintroduce physical punishment

Physical punishment was also not made illegal in Britain in 1986. there were different dates in Scotland and the rest of the UK.

afaik, restraint is barely used in schools, other than in some APUs and SEND schools. And, if you read the guidelines, they are clear that extreme restraint is not allowed.

No teachers use punishment.

It's used as a restraint in extreme circumstances. For example we once had a child who had lost it. was punching the wall repeatedly. He broke his knuckle in the process and started on a glass door. When that cracked he was restrained as he was putting himself in real danger of serious harm. That's when we need to step in sometimes.

I am also not entirely sure it was the EU that saw to the banning of corporal punishment in the UK or the ECHR. There was a vote in parliament which was won by a huge majority (only 11 MPs voted to retain it). Nothing was forced on us by a (wonderful/nanny state/bureaucratic/ delete as applicable) EU.

I am so old I was teaching at this time and most schools had stopped using corporal punishment long before this in practice.

Teachers do not want a reintroduction of physical punishment. Most don't even actually want restraint in schools

Teachers may not want it but it is what the tories are proposing and they look likely to win next election by a landslide.

Will of the people.

Teachers may not want it but it is what the tories are proposing and they look likely to win next election by a landslide.

It isn’t. If Boris wanted to bring back the cane he would just say so, then do a victory lap, because I suspect it would make him unassailable with his base.

what the tories are proposing

No it isn’t. Dom Cummings who is advising Johnson is the same person who advised Gove when the reasonable force guidelines were brought in.

If they were proposing a return to corporal punishment they’d have said corporal punishment not reasonable force.

I am going to ask you again woman... have you read the link!!!?

Nothing was forced on us by a (wonderful/nanny state/bureaucratic/ delete as applicable) EU

Wrong.

1982 ECHR ruling
ECHR separate from EU but up till now, compliance with ECHR necessary for EU membership
1998 Labour government.

Still, seems like the old 'reasonable force as part of disciplinary measures' very popular with you folks, so I'll leave you to it.

Although this is a good read from the olden days:

Why I'm glad corporal punishment is now only found in books

It’s hard to believe that just 30 years ago teachers used to routinely hit children who got out of line. Author Jon Walter on what it was like to fear physical punishment at school when he was growing up

www.theguardian.com/childrens-books-site/2016/jul/01/corporal-punishment-jon-walter

If you read my post above you will see I said I don't believe teachers should lay hands on pupils so you are wrong there.

If teachers refuse to carry out corporal punishment, it will not happen.

I just read that Guardian article , too. I am not sure what it adds to you actual argument. We all know it happened in the past. John Walter's school was not typical. 30+ years ago, 'only' the head caned. It is a long time since all teachers had the cane by their desk.
In my whole time at school, I remember it happening once to one boy. The appetite for corporal punishment went long before it was outlawed.

I know you are worried about Brexit, but this is a discrete issue.

I still need you to a)read the link and b) provide evidence that the Tories plan to bring back corporal punishment