How difficult to get into a grammar school?

[Battenburg11]

So my DD is sitting two grammar exams in London this September, one being Henrietta Barnett. DD is bright but not a genius. Just interested to know if your child got into a grammar, is your child super intelligent?

I understand grammar tests encompasses tests in verbal, non-verbal, English and maths? Thanks

I think it's a it depends question. In areas with lots of grammar schools it's easier. HB is the best grammar school in the country and is in an area with few grammar schools, so I believe it's much harder.
My DD is a very bright August baby, top set in all subjects, but not a genius. We also opted to only do light tutoring as didn't want her to get in and struggle. She did the Woodford County High School exam with over 1360 others (for 180 places). She passed, but didn't get offered a place (on the waiting list but not holding our breath). Is WCHS the other one you're going for? They're super competitive as we don't have many. Many child are really heavily tutored to get in.
Didn't really answer the question as DD didn't get in, but can tell you am about the (very stressful) process of it helps.

Think it really depends on which grammar - isn’t Henrietta B one of the most competitive of all? My DD got a place at one of the top semi state schools in Herts but a) it’s only semi selective and I don’t think as competitive as some others in England. She is bright but not genius levels and there were a small number of other kids at her level or above in some areas in her quite normal state primary.

Re what the grammar tests encompass, again, totally depends on the school. For the SW Herts consortium, it’s maths and verbal reasoning but not non verbal reasoning or English.

Thanks both. Yes other grammar is Woodfood. I think the pass is 104? My DD said some girls in the Year above got in at Woodfood with 115 and 116 but both children turned the offers. Henrietta is more of a trek for us so Woodfood would be our first choice. Feeling stressed as I know grammars are very competitive but we’re going with an attitude of giving them a shot.

Also does anyone know what both Henrietta and Woodford schools are like? We went to both open days and DD really liked both but I showed slight preference for Woodford due to headteacher’s talk and faculties.

I went to Woodford many years ago and loved my time there. I found the exam process horrendous, so warn your DD. There are two sittings - we were in the afternoon with about 600-700 others. The queue to register took over 40 minutes and I spent that time acting like an idiot to distract my DD. When we got to the front they were lovely but very carefully checked her photo form, made her take her fitbit off and even checked her pendant. When I passed her a hoodie they checked the pockets. My DD is very laid back, but this stretched her.
I'm only saying this so you can explain the process to her in advance. The first HB exam will be first I think, so at least she'll know the format. The exam is all about timing and techniques so do lots of practice with her (does she have a tutor - lots of the centres do practice papers the last week of the holidays).
Good luck with it all.

Many thanks newmum! I received the registration email from Woodford the other day and we’ve been allocated the morning slot. I assume the exams are for around 2.5hrs with a break?
Yes Henrietta is first but heard nothing from them yet. My DD will be sitting that test before she starts school so not sure how they expect us to validate her registration form by the headteacher prior to her test. I assume probably when it’s round two assuming my DD get to that stage.

DD goes to group tutoring with 25 others in her class. Just couldn’t afford the one to ones. What score did your DD get if you don’t mind me asking? Some of the girls I spoke to on open day said there are movements and girls join in later years so don’t give up!

Wigeon, interesting they didn’t test for English? Is the school in Hertfordshire that you mentioned being Hockerill?

No, it wasn’t Hockerill. It was one in the SW Herts Consortium, which is 7 schools who all use the same set of tests (ie the children sit one test administered by the consortium and can then apply to any of those schools under the academic criteria).

Doesn't HBS have a catchment criteria now for the 2nd round? Are you within this catchment?

HB is notoriously one of the hardest schools to get into in the country. It is fearsomely competitive and - anecdotally - locally you hear some horror stories about the commensurate academic pressure once in the school. That said, clearly for the right kind of girl it provides an outstanding education. Bear in mind also that it's a school that has never granted an admissions appeal! (AFAIK).
The catchment criteria (within 3 miles of the school) is new I think. Will be interesting to see what effect that had on admissions. I know of girls commuting from as far afield as Reading! It's been a grievance of Barnet families for years that there was no distance criteria.

With super selective grammars, the kids need to be bright and well prepared.

They also need to do well on the day I know of some who got too stressed out with the big crowds in the exam and completely bombed it. But then again, others perform better under stress.

If you are in the Common Catchment Area for WCHS, then you are not in the priority area for HBS and vice versa. If you are not in the CCA, then the likelihood of a place at WCHS is, historically, zero, however well your DD does in the exam. How likely a criterion 4 place at HBS will be, is more of an unknown. The number of children admitted under the LAC / former LAC criterion in most schools is very low, but more PP / within 3 miles girls may be encouraged to sit round 1 with the knowledge that they 'only' have to make it into the 300 and sit the second round to get priority for a place and who knows how many may actually get that far?

(Of course, the answer to that may be, no more than do currently and so the places will still largely go to intensively tutored and/or naturally very able girls from however far away their parents think it acceptable to make them travel...).

The distance criteria at HBS is a red herring - it only applies at the second round when basically ALL of those top 300 girls could perform well and get top grades, with a bit of luck on the day. The better way would be to give precedence for entry to the second round to (say) the top 600 for local girls.

OP - please consider the commute for your daughter. At HBS, she won't be alone in travelling huge distances but it is a tough life. It's actually easier for an 11 year old than a hormonal 14 year old who needs sleep. Please do think carefully if you get a place.

Have you considered Latymer? It's a brilliant school and much closer to you than HBS.

I agree that you have to be very bright but probably even more importantly (when vast numbers applying will be very bright) very well prepared so that you beat enough other very bright girls.

When 2000 girls take the exam, the question isn't really how bright you are, but if you're in the top 300 to get through to the next round - it's about beating the others rather than achieving a magic pass mark. And each year more apply so you have to beat more girls.

Most Grammars won't have these numbers and only superselectives require you to 'beat' others and be in the top group who can receive an offer. Standard Grammars often have a pass mark (although that is a standardised pass mark to ensure the right numbers pass, rather than a fixed level) and then go on distance, sometimes taking 1/3 of applicants, whereas superselectives might be taking 5%. Being in the top 1/3 is clearly much easier to achieve for many thN being in the top 5%.

It will be very much about the preparation you've done and are doing now. Most girls who get offers for HBS will have prepped for months or years, either with a parent or at home (varying from perhaps an hour a week to multiple hours per week). Some girls who only do some familiarisation over the summer will get to the next stage becaue they are super super bright and their natural ability is enough to beat those who are very bright and well prepared, but these will be a small number. It is theoretically possible for someone who has never seen a paper in their life to get to the next round, as again their simply natural ability could theoretically compensate and overcome all the prep lots of very bright girls might have done......but you'd have to be super super super bright and naturally good at exams for that to happen. It's possible though. Most parents don't want to chance it and hope their girl is that super super super bright one and therefore put in the time or money to prep and hope their DD is bright enough and well prepared enough to beat many hundred others who are doing similar.

The better way would be to give precedence for entry to the second round to (say) the top 600 for local girls.

Yes, that would be lovely - and applying an oversubscription criterion (I.e. something which applies only to applicants) to those who are merely, at this stage, exam candidates. Latymer got pulled up by the OSA on having that sort of thing in their admissions policy a few years back and actually got the attention of nice Mr Gibbs' department a couple of years ago when it attempted to exclude from the second round OOC candidates who qualified for it. The school having a perfectly legitimate policy of giving priority to IC applicants, all it achieved for the IC candidates who would have qualified anyway was an extra 300 IC candidates for them to compete against in round 2.

Possibly the governors at HBS have already decided that they would rather comply with the Admissions Code from the beginning and this is the best they can / are willing to do, short of scrapping the second stage and introducing a policy which e.g. allocates up to 50% of places to the top scoring locals, then the rest of the places to any applicant on score, regardless of place of residence. (Have a look at the policies for the two grammar schools in Chelsford for an example).

The reason HBS are giving precedence at all to local girls is because they were refused permission to expand their intake which shocked them apparently. Instead a nearby grammar school got permission as they gave precedence to pupil premium kids for the extra places. HBS announced their change in policy very soon afterwards.
I think it will change the school for the better. A lot of Barnet parents had been put off applying by the insane competition and the prospect of having classmates from as far away as Reading or Essex!

HB is not my first choice primarily due to the travel time. Before we applied, I did email the school to say whether there was a catchment criteria and was told no. They said parents got confused with the oversubscribed policy. Basically if a child done really well in both rounds, then they are eligible disregarding how far they lived.
In any event, don’t think I will put my daughter through the travel and would use the test as a practice run for WCHS which is within my catchment.

Didn’t applied to Latymer as not over I keen on its location it’s in but in hindsight maybe I should have incase she doesn’t get into WCHS.

Can’t wait until all this is over. Roll on October.

I'm not sure I'd use the HBS test as a first experience of the 11+ - it might freak her out, dent her confidence and the crowds will be enormous. There are other mock tests running in August - look on the elevenplusexams website (they run mocks with a similar format). Sadly, hundreds of these children will have been preparing for these tests since Year 4 or even earlier but it's worth a shot.