State v Private School

[Jimmyjimjam1]

Hello fellow Mumsnetters, I think I need to phone a friend. My two children currently attend a very good state school, my daughter is doing really well, howver my son has fallen into a group of friends that don't see doing well academically as being very 'cool', he is a clever boy and I feel that if this continues, it will hold him back, the children have just come to the end of year 8. As my daughter is musical, there has been an unexpected opportunity for them both to possibly attend a good private school, they have to sit the test yet, but it is looking promising. I don't have a private school background and financially it would be a very big commitment for us. I would really like to know anyones views on whether private school is worth the investment who may have found themselves in a similar situation - really I guess it is my son who would need it more, but I have heard that boys can tend to knuckle down in year 9 when the GCSE syllabus starts? Many thanks for any thoughts.

If you find a way to afford it then it’s definitely worth it to set your children a good example of social responsibility. The reason why this country is on its knees economically is this pathological conviction that most people have that the state should provide them with everything starting with their education and ending with pensions and nursing homes. Grades aren’t that important but a sense of independence is worth your last penny.

Interesting how the dealers are assumed to be the ‘rich privileged’ private school kids. In my experience that’s certainly not the case at all. That very much depends on the child, not the school.
Our daughter’s senior independent, was full of hard working parents like us. Rich and privileged were rather few, and the only kids she knew that were into drugs, were from the large state schools around us. There was one girl in her year who had joined in year 9 having been at our local comp, and her parents thought the school could ‘fix’ her. Although they tried their best with her, she had zero aspiration, still hung out with her old school gang, and ended up leaving after flunking her GCSEs.

These type of thread always bring out those who cheerfully recount stories of X thriving in the state sector and Y becoming a mass murderer having been to a top indpednetly school or vice versa.
Its all about the school and your child.
If youre paying 40K PA you're going to get extra curricular activities opportunities and facilities etc and what some on here call cultural capital in a different league to anything the state sector can ever provide but will your child use them or enjoy it? Not all do. For example not all want to stand on a rugby pitch 3 days a week for a whole term come hell of high water. Results are not guaranteed in either sector neither is better teaching Ive seen good bad or indifferent in both sectors. Classes are likely to be smaller in some cases a lot smaller but again this may not suit your child.
Generally poor behaviour is stamped up in the independent sector its easier to suggest a child leaves and most children are aware their parents are paying and feel under and obligation to try their best but there will always be the "cool" types in every school and your DS may gravitate to them.
You say it will be a "big commitment" don't under estimate this. Fees are a drain on finances when we used to get together with parents from DS1\2 school moaning about the fees is the commonest complaint and most of these were people who are very wealthy. There will always be extra curricular stuff etc to pay for and this will vary very much from school to school ours were surprisingly cheap others friends with children at other schools told a different story.
Think carefully, look at the school very carefully if they start in yr 7 why do they have vacancies? Never assume that paying will transform your child into a industrious hard working swot or they'll get better results.

£40?? That's top boarding school, not private day school, surely??

My kids school charge £11450 from year 3-6.

I meant "£40k ??"



Private days school in London for years 7-12 are £15k-£19 per year, or maybe a bit more for 6th form. Still a lot of money!

What happygardening says is spot on. It cost for the benefits, for which there are many and worth the money depending on your child, circumstances and choice of state school. I've got 2DC - one is state (will do well anywhere, is not that sporty or musical, but academic - luckily for us!) and one in private (could do with a push - is susceptible to peer pressure and loves their sport).

It would depend how easily I could afford it. I wouldn’t sacrifice having a semi decent lifestyle for it, but then I’m lucky my son is not only very smart but motivated and goes to a good school where they seem to really value and nurture their high achievers- if they didn’t I might feel different

Our state schools are average at best. Ds1 is now at a private school. There is a lot more sport, music and drama which he really enjoya and there are 12 in the class rather than 23. Some state schools in.London probably provide the services range of extra curricular but where we are it is very poor. They do maths festivals etc, sports teams with matches in year 3 etc. Our primary school had 1 match per term in football. No other sport. So it's like chalk and cheese.
Behaviour at the private school is not amazing but they are stricter. We pay £12k per year for junior school.

OP, first make sure your DC would be happy with the change. Private schools are long hours even for day. Day pupils at DD's school had to be in for 8.10am, the earliest they could leave was 6.30pm, and had to attend on Saturdays.

If your DD is musical, might be worth applying for a scholarship as that would give her extra support, as well as a discount. My DD was on one for two years, the support was amazing. Someone was always available 7.30am-10pm.

DD only attended for Sixth Form but had a fantastic experience, so much support in many ways and easy to contact. DD handed in five practice essays for one of her A level subjects (which she'd chosen to do, not been asked), they were marked by 8pm and feedback given. My husband has literally said, why wouldn't you want it for your DC. As parents we've had more one to one contact with teachers than we ever did in all DD's years at state.

As said before, DCs do need to be motivated and willing to do the long hours.

Ignore soapona comment about dorks. My DD certainly isn't one, nor are any of her friends or other pupils I met. She is very switched on and at 17 handles things far better than myself!

The teacher contact point is interesting and something those with children in the independent sector may take for granted thus not mention it when talking about pros and cons. DS2 boarding school all his life) teacher contact was excellent phone calls emails etc responded to within hours including during evenings weekends holidays etc, any conversation with staff was much more of a partnership a "what can I do to help?" "How can we resolve this" (from teacher).
A total contrast from my experience of the state sector (DS 1 yr 9-13) I remember a multiple voicemails from an increasingly irritated teacher trying to speak to me, she said she finished at 1600 and I worked in a secure 8-5 unit where phones and phone calls weren't allowed, my DH was working abroad, her last voicemail implied I was avoiding her questioning and why wasn't I at home at 1400 to answer the phone! When I emailed the school explaining the situation I was told I had to make myself available: stalemate. I never did speak to her. I found any discussion with the staff I DS1 comp. they were either always on the defensive or slightly aggressive nothing was going to change whatever we said. Or the classic "what are you going to do about it?" Or "what do you think the problem is?" And if I had a suggestion the answer "there's nothing we can do about that/we don't do that". In fact don't set me off my head used to ache having endlessly banged it against a wall stuffed wiht couldn't care less teachers.

Should add my experience isn't isolated, at work I now listen to endless parents telling me similar stories.

Happygardening...completely agree. This has sadly been my experience too. We moved our youngest from state primary because the school were simply failing her on so many levels. The comment earlier about bright children being ok wherever they are, is not necessarily the case for all. Our eldest was reasonably bright, and exceeded expectations at her private secondary. Our youngest is particularly bright, gifted by all professional opinions, yet her state school simply had no interest in her progress beyond the expectations of her class. Other issues relating to long term absence due to illness, were dealt with appallingly. It was incredibly frustrating to speak with the staff, and sense their ‘complain all you want’ attitude, it won’t make a jot of difference here....
It still makes me angry thinking about it. And it makes me angry that we have had to make such huge financial sacrifices (while still paying huge taxes towards a system that is grossly flawed) to be at a school where we feel we are all on the same page, with the same agenda. To get the best education for our child.

Can I also point out that year 8 & 9 are prime arsing about years for boys in both state and private schools. For many of them the novelty of year 7 has worn off and the hard work hasn’t started.

It was at that point I started getting calls about being silly, not naughty, but low level messing about in art & music (not arty or musical and not interested) and mucking about in assembly with things like pulling chairs away from friends so they fell on the floor. Unbelievably annoying for the teachers and utterly frustrating for me. School handled it very well to be fair but I think it was quite normal behaviour at that age.

By year 10 they all knuckled down and worked really hard for GCSE’s and I’ve never heard from school since.

That was not hwy the school was calling me.

Worth it for me - I paid 5 sets of school fees and I went to a fee paying school too. My youngest are at university now and doing very well.

Make sure you pick a good fee paying school.

3 of my children had music scholoarhips by the way (at age 12/13+ not 11+) and it sounds like your daughter is musical too. They had some quite high exam grades eg son 1 had grade 8 singing, grade 7 trumpet, grade 7 piano, grade 5 drum kit and grade 5 theory at age 12 when he was competing for the scholarships (and was quite good) so that might be why he won his music scholarship. You don't need exams however - you just need to be good and it will depend on the school - some are easier to get music scholarships at than others.

Jimmyjimjam1 - the very existence of private schools shows that some people think they are worth the investment. Whatever anyone else says, however, you will not know whether or not you think it was a good investment until you are looking back in retrospect (and by that point, you will have invested so much money into it that, psychologically, you will be looking for all the possible justifications for having done so, because nobody would want to think they had in any way wasted that much money).

You know your ds best. You are discontented enough to be considering trying something else out. So, look around the school you are considering and imagine your ds there. Try to find out the school's local reputation. Do you know anyone whose children already go there? Is this solely about trying to get him away from bad influences (because private schools are not free of these!), or about keeping him busier for a larger part of the day, or having a closer eye kept on him in smaller classes, or having a wider range of subjects and extra-curricular choices? What are you willing to spend your money on and is a school move essential to achieve it?

I’d say it’s worth it. It may be worth applying for a bursary or perhaps even a schorlarship. To have a better chance of getting either a bursary or scholarship to an independent school you should make sure the school that you most want to go to knows that you are getting other offers for places at other schools, preferably other private schools but also other state schools because then your school of first choice is more likely to feel pressured to compete against the other schools for your children and give you a better offer. This is especially true during the 11+. Mind you make sure you only do this after you have already secured a place at the school you want. This is from personal experience

I just wanted to say a big thank you to all who took the time to share experiences, it has been a huge help. My daughter continues to flourish at the state school she is in and I am researching private schools to see if there might be a school that is a good fit for my son, he is a bit more settled this year, but unfortunately still lacks focus and feels the need to 'entertain'. My next dilemma will be if we move our son, should we move our daughter too, as it would not seem fair.

It's a hard decision for the many parents for whom it's a marginal decision.

In the end, it can never be about a broad state vs independent choice. It can only be about you weighing the costs in terms of lifestyle impacts now and in the future (think pension implications possibly) against the likely gains your child will receive from a particular school.

All of the decision making is based on partial information. You can't know for sure how your child will do if they remain in state, nor exactly how an individual school in the private sector will pan out for them. It is hard to know if your child will access all the many extra curricular opportunities available or refuse to join in. It doesn't matter if lots of children at that school are in the National Youth Orchestra or playing for the county or getting a full sweep of A* grades and going to Oxbridge, if your child isn't going to do any of those things (although all those things probably create a positive atmosphere) when you are interested in what your child does.

All you can do is gather as much info as possible. Know as much as you can about the state options and outcomes (with an open mind - some can be excellent) and know as much as you can about the independents by really drilling down into the glossy marketing - so find out exactly how many are involved in different activities, how many take the subjects your DC might be interested in, performances of both the high end and the lower end too, destinations after school if all children, not just the elite etc etc. And you have to know your own child and be realistic too, as far as possible. Know their personality and whether the state school will enable them to thrive or not (of course many children do thrive in all kinds of state schools and some children are more able to do it than others) but also if an independent school will really make much difference for them (some will be hard working and motivated wherever they go) or if the wider opportunities are likely to be accessed or ignored.

In the end, I think many people feel the decision is marginal. They think their child will have a bit better experience and do a bit better at an independent school, and know the fees they paid were huge and possibly too much really for the gain (although this is relative of course to the sacrifice involved and that differs a lot) but they chose to pay that expensive price for the small gain. That's fine if you can pay the big price and not be ruined by it. If however, it means no pension, and no holidays for years and worrying about the boiler breaking down, then I really think the cost is too great.

But lots of us will choose to pay a high price for a pretty minimal extra gain, because of a gut feeling that education is worth it, and our children are worth it and that minimal gain counts for more than an extra bedroom or new car or great holiday or couple of extra years in retirement.

Fantastic post WombatChocolate ! We are going through this very decision. So hard