EPQ or D of E gold?

[blackwych]

My son is starting 6th form in September. He is doing 3 STEM A levels and has been given a choice of doing the EPQ or D of E gold. My question is - which should he do? He wants to do the D of E because there is 'less writing' but I am worried that this will harm his chances of getting into university. Do universities really care about the DofE award? Also, he has already started doing the DofE bronze with Explorers, so in theory could achieve the EPQ and a DofE award.

I don’t think universities care about DoE, but then I’m not sure how much they care about EPQ either. Sometimes people get lower offers if combined with an excellent EPQ, but they aren’t essential. I have one at Oxbridge and one holding an Oxbridge offer and neither did EPQ, but did do other things to show their interest in their subjects over and above the A level syllabus.

D of E in itself will make no difference either way to a university application. It's not listed in the qualifications you can include on the UCAS form. If as part of his D of E he did some volunteering or learned a skill that was relevant to the subject, then that would be something he could include in the personal statement (e.g. volunteering in a care home for an application for a healthcare relates degree).

EPQ might make a difference to a university application, depending on the subject. Some universities will give a slightly lower grade offer if the applicant has a high grade in the EPQ. If the EPQ is relevant to the subject, this would be useful to include in the personal statement.

However, both of these activities are primarily for personal development / education in itself, not for university applications, and he should really do the one he is most interested in.

DS2 is applying to university this Autumn to study a STEM subject. We have been to five open days. In the Q&A at the end of the admissions talks, people asked about both.
For D of E: the answer was that you can mention it in your personal statement, but it's not the sort of thing they are looking at when they assess applications.
For the EPQ: the answer (for all) was that they don't take it into account when giving offers. This might be different for Arts / Humanities.

For the humanities courses we have looked at they do take the EPQ into account and offer a reduced grade eg AAB is reduced to ABB (and that's RG Unis).
When you go to the course page on the Uni web site it shows grades and often has 'alternate qualifications' (which you would assume is Scottish, IB etc) but many of them have EPQ listed. A few say that they like it but don't take it into account but most say they reduce the grade eg Birmingham, Liverpool, Exeter, Lancaster, Manchester.

D of E - the admissions departments have all said that it doesn't add any weight to your application.

Thanks everyone - your replies have been really useful.

I have looked at a few admissions pages of universities and none of them mention the DofE, but all of them said something about the EPQ.

I think he should consider which would he enjoy and what skills they would develop. These things shouldn't all be about what will help with university applications.

EPQ - develop research skills and to find out about something outside the curriculum. Potentially useful as pre-skills for university. Difficult to motivate if he isn't all that interested.

DofE Gold - camping & expedition, volunteering, activity, skill. Does he have things he would like to do in those areas that this will give him the impetus to do? Does him being part way through bronze impact eligibility to do this at all? Will he enjoy the walking/camping or hate every minute of it?

I do think DS would be well advised to do something where writing is required. Few Stem people get away without coherent writing in their work and at university. Only do D of E if the volunteering is directly relatable to the degree. This means it’s useful. It’s not if it’s just an extra activity. The EPQ is better if he can tailor it effectively to his degree subject. Some stem degrees don’t have particularly onerous A level requirements so check these out and decide if his time is better spent on his A levels!

Bear in mind if he hasnt done silver then he'll have to spend 18 months on either physical or skill section.

Dd had been told thelat she has to do an epq, d of e is voluntary.

Gold is expensive so not sure whether she'll do it as well. I think it would do her good though as shes anxious and a bit shy so the volunteering and camping would be good for her.

DofE is a bigger, or at least more varied, commitment. It involves a much wider range of skills and activities (and so I personally think it's a more interesting qualification).

The EPQ can be hard work but it's essentially an extended essay - potentially good experience if his other subjects are all STEM and don't involve essay writing, but he'd only be developing academic skills, rather than broader personal qualities.

Obviously your son may decide his academic skills are more in need of development than other things, but it's worth considering which he'll find more valuable in the long run.

I agree with @TeenTimesTwo. He should do what he would enjoy.
I had heard that D of E weighs more than CCF, as it supposedly teaches kids to think for themselves. But he must have done bronze and silver already.
I think anything that differentiates one candidate from another can only be a good thing. What does he want to do?

Another thing to consider is that an EPQ attracts UCAS points and can tip you into the "Yes" pile if it's a tight call. As others have confirmed, DofE is pretty much redundant as far as uni applications are concerned.

As a mum of a STEM boy I agree wholeheartedly that the EPQ teaches them invaluable independent research and academic writing skills.

Just to confirm, in case of uncertainty, you can do gold DofE with only bronze or with no previous award, not just after doing bronze and silver, but it does require an extra 6 months. One of mine will (probably) be doing gold after having done bronze, the other if he does it will do silver then possibly gold - in both cases that's the way their schools choose to run it.

If my eldest was being told EPQ or DofE I suspect she'd still want to do DofE and I'd be insisting she be given the opportunity to do the EPQ as well ... But I'm crossing my fingers that she finds a really good topic for the EPQ that really reflects her interests, as that will be useful. It may provide a stepping stone / initial material for "this is how much I want to study course X". What course X will be is a work in progress ... (For her the possible alternative was a 4th A level which I'd initially liked to have seen her doing)

The EPQ is useful for humanities if you are applying to universities whichbinterview, as it gives you something to talk about. Some universities will drop a single grade in their offer, but many won't. DD's college encourages you to add an EPQ to your 3 A levels unless you are taking FM as a 4th. I don't think the college has ever suggested DofE as an alternative.

DD2s draft EPQ was one of her submitted pieces of work as part of her Cambridge application, the interviewers went through it line by line with her, getting her to justify all her planning, research and revision. They didn't care that she was part way through gold DofE.

OTOH, Dd1 got her first post uni job because she had done gold DofE, her academic qualifications got her to interview, and the DofE got her the job (as well as a love of nice stationery!)

They're both useful, but for different things I think, EPQ more helpful for uni application, DofE for job.

DS1 has done both ( he’s just finished A levels) - it was a lot of hard work with 3 A levels though and he hasn’t yet finished the DoE. At Newcastle open day he was told that his high provisional EPQ mark would probably get him a Psychology place at AAB instead of AAA - he’s applying after A levels.

If it’s purely for university entrance if he’s targeting top universities then EPQ all the way.

If he’s likely to get first choice University without it then let him do DofE. So few people actually get their gold award that it carries some sway when it comes to getting a job.

Before children I worked in the city and would hire a large number of graduates annually. They all had the same CV. Three good A-levels, minimum 2:1 degree from Russell Group University. I had to beg recruitment agents to list their extra curricular stuff on their CVs as a way of differentiation.

I would ALWAYS put people who have worked at summer camp in the USA, got gold DofE or committed properly to something outside of academia at the top of the list for interview. I met a World Tiddlywinks Champion, a title winning male ballroom dancer, numerous people who played sport regularly just because they enjoyed it, and many many people who carried on their DofE volunteering because they enjoyed it.

Sure, it won’t help with university admissions but it may well help him get a job upon graduation.

What about a fourth A level in a foreign language or something else that show breadth of ability? I’d go for that well before EPQ.

A 4th A Level is a hell of a lot of work in comparison to an EPQ!

EPQ
He can also volunteer of do other extra curriculars as well though

DofE will help with job applications and interviews - both short-term and when he's applying for jobs after university. I have students return every year and tell me that DofE is often discussed favourably at job interviews. Also helps develop some useful habits for work life balance - physical activity, skill and volunteering.

I don’t think D of E helps any more than doing relevant work or volunteering. Or even having knowledge about a hobby which is interesting to other people. It’s highly regulated and perhaps people who think outside the box and are self starters can be of greater value.

I’m not sure parents paying for flights to the USA and facilitating summer camp work should be a deciding factor in getting a job!

A lot of colleges actively discourage a 4th A level now, especially as you would be expected to hit a predicted grade for it, even if unrelated to your degree course.

Slightly OT but if you research working at summer camps in the USA you’ll see that it costs in the region of £500 for everything (including VISA costs, transportation and insurance). If an 18-21 year old can’t raise that by themselves then there’s a problem.

It always amazes me that people think young people are gifted these opportunities on a plate. The great majority work hard to get themselves there, without relying on any kind of parental support. Once they get to camp it will be the hardest job they ever do but the skills they get from it last a lifetime.

This is not a gap yaaaaar type of thing.

I think you should let him choose. Ultimately it's him who's going to have to do whichever option for the next 2 years. A good EPQ grade can help with uni admissions, but if he does poorly, this still has to be passed on to the uni and might harm his chances of getting in (e.g. If he's a near miss on results day). Whereas if he ends up dropping DofE, then nobody ever has to know.

A good EPQ can definitely help with uni admissions, both formally in terms of a lower offer, and informally by tipping the balance towards that candidate over another- but this only really works if he's enthusiastic about doing one and is going to do well in it.

Let him choose to do what he wants to do.

DS (just finished Yr 11) is a good way into his Gold Award already because he enjoys doing it and finds the skills it teaches him valuable. He knows that it won't count for anything in terms of UCAS but equally, PPs are right about its value on a CV. I have the Gold Award and have been asked about it in every job interview I've been in.