Graveney or the Sutton Grammars?

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We are thinking through secondary options for our son. If your son were to get a place at both Graveney and Sutton Grammar which would you opt for?

Sutton is further from us (but one train away). He could cycle to Graveney or take a bus.

I’d be interested to hear how the ethos and atmosphere compares from teachers or parents with direct experience of either. Our son is quite bookish but cheerful; loves music and throws himself into everything with 100%!

Sutton is entirely selective entry whereas Graveney is a mix of super selective and distance based places. What difference would this have on his daily life? I assume if he got a place at Graveney he’d be in their top stream?

Help! I’m finding it difficult to think through all the implications / considerations.......

OP I think it depends on your child's temperament and character.

DS is just about to finish at one of the Sutton grammars. Truth be told, he did not hit his academic stride until the sixth form - possibly because he was immature and had his confidence knocked early on in his secondary school career, for being amongst such very bright boys. However, he has loved his last two years there and will now be very sad to leave, hopefully with very good A Level results. He is an intelligent, polite, quietly confident and very knowledgeable young man (who trounces us in University Challenge despite never appearing to read a book or newspaper!).

I think you need to visit the schools and get a feel what suits your DS. Ours disliked Graveney when he visited it (seems like a lifetime ago now) and it was bottom choice on his CAF!!! However, we have friends with DC who are/have been there who have absolutely thrived.

Graveney is a much larger school than the Sutton grammars which may also be a consideration. The catchment area for Graveney is very small (and many of those in extension sets are local too), so more chance of having nearby friends - more of an issue when they are younger than when fully independent and happy to go off on their own for meet-ups.

Really you would need to hear from people with experience of DC at both to give a measured overview, I would have thought.

I would also say that the grammars don't spoon feed their pupils in terms of revision and learning. They are expected to be independent learners from the off. They are also given an amazing array of opportunities and access to national competitions (which they often win).

However, worth noting that the Sutton grammars are super STEM oriented (particularly Wilson's and SGS), so if your DS's thing is maths or science then I would definitely say he would thrive at one of them. However, if he's more on the humanities side, Graveney may be a better bet.

I recently saw a break-down of those admitted to Graveney (possibly for last year?). I'm sure the number of siblings admitted was nigh on 50% of the year group. So once one child has got a place, you're sitting pretty with gaining entry for subsequent DC (providing there's not a large age difference between them!).

Also where do you live? We're in between, about a mile from Graveney and would be very unlikely to get in, but possibly could get Wilsons, even Sutton, but not necessarily, even though teens on our street attend.
I suspect ds wouldn't want a grammar despite being bright (ASD with lots of anxiety)

The catchment area distance for Graveney is about 700 metres. Looking at the intense housing density in a radius around the school (mainly terraces and maisonettes), it's understandable why it's so difficult to gain a place.

Hard to answer the original question as you’d need a kid at both or exceptional insights in both schools.
My DS2 is at SGS in year 7. I am ( and more to the point he is) very happy with the school. He’s intellectually stimulated, and has made a nice friendship group. maybe the fact that it is a relatively small school helped there, DS1 is at the large local comp ( Rutlish) and it took him over a year to make friends and he’s the more sociable of the two.
I really have no complaints against the school, communications are excellent and all the teachers seem very engaged and shrewd in their assessment of DS and his strengths/ areas for improvement.

“They are also given an amazing array of opportunities and access to national competitions (which they often win).” As did my Dc from Graveney.

JackParblane: there is no distance criteria on the selective places at Graveney.

OP: would your child be happier in single sex or mixed?

Closer to the school or happy with a journey?

Feel free to PM me. I have a DD currently at Graveney. She got in on the selective stream and it's perfect for her. It is a massive school and it took her awhile to find her social groups, but she has a fantastic group of friends now (boys and girls) and she is doing really well. The downsides about Graveney are it's size, it's lack of communication with the parents and the pastoral care. The music department has really improved in the last few years. It was pretty dire when my daughter started and the drama isn't great if you child is into that. The arts aren't a priority for the head. Academically it is excellent. The upsides are the school community (fantastic mix of families culturally, socially, and economically) and the teachers. The teaching there is fantastic, but you do have to be a self-starter. If you have a somewhat lazy or shy or just middle of the road child it's easy to get lost in the mix there and they won't notice. They have too many students, so if you child is doing fine, but not reaching their own potential, they won't be pushed. They have to push themselves there. Great prep for Uni. No spoon feeding at Graveney. Which brings me to my next child who could easily sit back and get by because he is bright enough to get away with it.

My DS is at Tiffin and did the Sutton grammars as well. They are all pretty similar so I'll give you my take on Tiffin. Tiffin is an easy commute for us and easier to get to than the Sutton Grammars so it was higher on the CAF, but I thought all the Sutton Grammars were very good as well. The Grammars are smaller, same sex (this could be a + or a - depending on your feelings or depending on the child). The pastoral care at Tiffin is wonderful, the teachers really know the students. I don't think the teaching is better than Graveney. In many ways, I think the teaching at Graveney is better, but the personal approach at Tiffin is great if that is more of what your child needs. Also, the arts at Tiffin is wonderful and a priority for the head which makes a difference. My DS needed that more, so it was higher on our list, but if he hadn't gotten in and gone to Graveney instead I would have still been happy. Graveney kids are more hip than the grammars, but in the end that doesn't really matter. It's where they will be happy and they can thrive.

“you have a somewhat lazy or shy or just middle of the road child it's easy to get lost in the mix there and they won't notice. They have too many students, so if you child is doing fine, but not reaching their own potential, they won't be pushed”

Hmmm that’s interesting. That isn’t the impression I have got at sixth form at least. Anyone who doesn’t meet targets gets an e mail and intervention strategy.

Our experience of the music department is that it is very strong, and in sixth form the school production , which is entirely pupil led, is amazing. I would agree that the teaching is very strong. They do do a good job of expecting kids to excercise leadership over their own learning and opportunities, and support quite an entrepreneurial ethos.

The communication with parents is ramshackle, they have not invested in the online programmes that other schools use.

It is full of ‘hip’ kids, the offspring of the famous etc, and has a ‘middle class drugs’ issue, second only to some of the local-ish S London private schools. Much worse than the sought after S London comps such as Charter and Dunraven.

Behaviour around the school and in class is good.

I know young people from two of the Sutton Grammars and many from Graveney: it is probably a coincidence and a minute anecdotal
Sample but I would say the Sutton kids are a bit more geeky and conventional.

my DS is geeky and conventional. As most of my other relatives are mad I am so happy about that!

InceyWinceyette I'm not in disagreement with you at all. The 6th form is a different school from the rest in many ways like most schools. My DD has had a good experience at Graveney so far. She is very happy there and is doing incredibly well and I'm sending my youngest DS there next year. But for my other DS the grammar school (Tiffin) was a better choice for him. It really depends on your child's personality. If you need a lot of pastoral care for whatever reason, I would choose the grammar over Graveney. But academically they are both excellent. I think the extracurricular is weak at Graveney, not necessarily because there is nothing provided, but because the culture of the Lower and Upper school is that it isn't that cool to do that much. It's the opposite at Tiffin. Kids do a lot of extracurricular there and it is expected and encouraged not just from the teachers but from peers as well. Plenty of creative, unconventional and non geeky boys at Tiffin. I can't comment on the the Sutton Grammars on that, but what is nice is all are accepted at Tiffin. It is a very inclusive school and chess players are just as valued as Rugby players.

I agree with you, too, NotEnoughSleep:
Especially about the pastoral care.

Hi @whataboutbob - revisiting this old post. Was interested to see you have boys at both Rutlish and SGS - would you give your honest views of Rutlish please? I'm hearing very mixed reports from 'it has better teachers than some SW London private schools' through to 'the teachers are uninspiring'. I'm keen to know what the new head has brought to the table as, despite her sports background, I am hearing that there isn't much focus on sport at all. Thanks in advance!

Hi @Trampoline. DS1 is now in 6th form. I would say most of his teachers are reasonably good, there are some lovely ones. Unfortunately for GCSE art he had a poor one, but that one left.
As you’ll know, it is a large and sometimes boisterous school. Bad behaviour is not tolerated as far as I can see. But year 7 will inevitably include some disruptive elements, who will either improve or eventually get expelled.
I can’t comment on sports much as we are not a very sporty family .
Feel free to post more questions.