Winchester, Westminster, or Eton?

[PGWo]

Our son is currently at prep school. He will be starting secondary school in two years. He is a very intelligent child who consistently gets good marks, and his favourite recreation is reading. He is indifferent to sport. Thus, we thought a school that is unashamedly academic would be best for him. The head has recommended Winchester or Westminster. They both sound great, but our son is worried that Winchester is too connected to Oxford, and he is leaning towards Cambridge. As for Westminster, apparently they only have boarding throughout the week, which is an issue for us because I live and work on the continent.
Even though Eton is not as academic, a relative suggested looking into having our son sit for the King's Scholar test. I know it is very hard.
For anyone who knows, how is the lifestyle different for the scholars and commoners in these three schools?

Deciding on a university early on is not totally implausible, but I think it can lead to tunnel vision and it would be better to stay open-minded.

I decided I wanted to go to Oxford at the age of ten because I had seen a picture of it in a book. It was entirely my decision and nothing to do with my school or parents. I was very single minded and did end up going there - but afterwards wished I'd gone to another university which would probably have suited me better, rather than basing it on an idealised vision I had when I was ten.

Nothing to add to the schools discussion other than what has been said above. I think, as others have said, the idea of Eton as not particularly academic seems quite out of date (just based on exam results, league tables and the children getting in there now).

In my generation it was possible to get in without being brilliantly clever (whereas Winchester and Westminster seemed to have a more academic profile even then). But I think all the boys getting into these schools now are strong academically, and all the schools do extremely well in terms of exam results - it is more a case of the logistics which work for you and the ethos and school environment which suit your child and his temperament.

The original statesmom Westminster thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/secondary/a1985236-Is-Westminster-School-the-best-school-on-Earth#44787056

In DDs year they had eight Harvard offers which she tells me was about the best from any school anywhere.

If you have a choice, and if you need full boarding you don’t, I would leave it up to the child. At its most basic Westminster is urban, Winchester is not. Where would your child be most comfortable?

Again, I'm not pressuring him to go to Cambridge and neither is my wife. He just fell in love with it. I've told him most people who apply don't get in. That just encouraged him to try more.
I'll support him as much as I can, but I'd say the same if his dream was to be a plumber.

Update: Apparently I may be staying in London. Even then, our son would prefer to have the full boarding experience. Should we just forget about Westminster then?
Also, what is DS and DD?

@PGWO - Winchester does not have some umbilical cord to Oxford - it just doesn't . It pretty much hasn't since William of Wykham. As Shimy said ( and it is an academic school) many boys go on to American Universities or RG , lots choose Imperial / UCL / LSE just as an example or the Scottish universities & some even apply to Cambridge - some ( and I must whisper here ) go elsewhere or straight into a job.

I agree with others - far too early to be choosing a school as a route to university. Choose the best congenial school where your son will be happy & then if he does well he has a good few years to decide on the best course for him. His views may very very very well change.

If you need full boarding - think of that first. Many aren't. Many good and decent schools & 6th form colleges will be able to prepare a pupil for an Oxbridge entrance exam if that is what he ends up wanting - he may not.

Specifically re your question @PGWo - Winchester scholars and commoners have lessons all in the same places everything else also the same . Only difference is where they sleep ( so in house or in college) & where they eat ( same) ( in real terms).

@stucknoue -Winchester don't do rugby - sorry I could not resist that pedantry. So your DD may not have liked Winchester boys but it will be for other reasons.

@AtiaoftheJulia and @Needmoresleep and others - thank you for the blond link - that just made me laugh once more - I remember it. Also Statesmom's grasp on probability ( re 50% of Westminster go to Oxbridge - & my grasp of probability is tenuous - ha ha ) Quite nostalgic. But

@PGWo - for completeness - DS is Son and DD is daughter.

Also, and this is in some ways silly advice and in some ways not , my son advised going to visit a university on a rainy day. On a beautiful sunny day - who would not fall in love with Cambridge. During the winter with one high st - it may feel different ( I do not mean to criticise there anyone who has a DC ( child @PGWo) at Cambridge or anywhere else , seriously I don't , just that a lovely city ( which Cambridge certainly is , very beautiful , or a beautiful campus can look different at different times of the year. DS's advice is always - choose the course and then visit those who offer it and see where you would feel most comfortable. Very basic advice , but I think sound . ( For reference DS doesn't have a blond hair on his head and is doing OK What were the chances of that ? )

PGWo, DS and DD is MumsNet shorthand for 'Dear (Darling) Son' and 'Dear/Darling Daughter'. So it follows, DM for example, would be Dear Mother, etc.

"For anyone who knows, how is the lifestyle different for the scholars and commoners in these three schools?"

I can only speak for one school - Eton - as my son was a KS (King's Scholar) there. I suppose there are a lot of similarities between Eton and Winchester in particular because Eton was founded in 1440 by Henry VI along the image of Winchester which was founded some 48 years earlier. So we are talking about medieval times here and I start from here because you said in an earlier post that you didn't quite know the history.

In fact, Henry VI "persuaded" a lot of masters from Winchester to come to Eton in its infancy and even roped in the best students, some 25 of them first but later 70, as the first students to start at Eton. His idea was to educate 70 scholars free of charge; all to be fed, housed and educated at his expense.

A slight deviation here: You mentioned your son (DS) has great designs to go to Cambridge. That being so, ETON is, and should be the natural and default choice out of the three schools mentioned here.

To continue with the Eton story, Henry VI went on a year later in 1441 to found the majestic King's College at Cambridge. This is one of the most impressive Colleges of all Cambridge University colleges! Following their (basic) education at Eton, the scholars were to walk into King's College Cambridge to further their education after which they were to become the King's advisors in all matters of state.

But after almost 600 years many things have changed. Unsurprisingly, these medieval schools still retain many of their past traditions but mostly of a ceremonial nature. At Eton there are still 70 KS's at any one time and they are distinguished from the rest of the 95% Oppidans (called Commoners at WinColl) of the school by wearing a gown over their school uniform.

The KS's live centrally at a house called, College right smack at the heart of Eton where everyone has his own private bedroom - as does each and every Oppidan who lives in the other 24 houses spread throughout the entire village of Eton; something no other boarding school in the !and can match!

KS's dine exclusively at the prestigious College Hall (not to be confused with School Hall) where past guests and diners included the likes of Elizabeth I, George Orwell, John Maynard Keynes, Harold Macmillan, to name but a few. The food served at College Hall will seriously embarrass the restaurants of 5-star hotels, believe me. My other half just couldn't wait to dine at College Hall each time we visited for official school events.

On a daily basis, there is absolutely not much difference between a scholar and an oppidan. The boys are streamed according to subject and academic ability. It is therefore, not surprising sometimes to see scholars of the same cohort and ability spread over three or four different classes mixed with oppidan. This is not to suggest the standard of scholars has fallen, rather the standard of some oppidans is as good as, if not better than, some scholars. The environment everywhere is super-competitive. The atmosphere is such that you don't know where the next competition is coming from, College or Oppidan Houses. Not ashamed to say DS had been caught many a time "with his pants down", so to speak, when he was pipped at the post for the top prize from unexpected corners. No hard feelings - you win some, you lose some! It encourages you to work even harder if you lose. DS had his fair shares in winning. So please do not assume Eton is not academic.

Not much difference in the Arms of the two sister colleges.

"The grant of arms to King’s College Cambridge followed the Eton grant word for word, except that three roses argent were substituted for the three lily-flowers".

This year Eton has 43 offers from Oxford,23 from Cambridge and 10 ivy league..not too shabby..

Westminster’s are higher if the unofficial figures I have heard are correct. But there are so many variables: school size, subject, initial selectivity, sixth form intake, etc that raw numbers don’t tell you much.

It’s the school that feels right for the child, and obviously the one that accepts the child.

I think this data is the year before www.nlcs.org.uk/news/2019-01-02/Eight-schools-send-more-to-Oxbridge-than-2-800-rivals but still a useful list. The numbers of course will vary by size of school too - fewer pupils fewer Oxbridge offers is likely in a lot of these very similar (academically) schools. (NLCS (girls, day) is the only school in the list any of my 5 have been to)

I'm confused. If your son is 11, he'd be in year 6 so should have sat the pretests for entry at the end of last year. Or is he year 5?

If year 5 why not just apply to all 3 - your son can just sit the ISEB test once for all of them and see what happens?

The age/year makes no sense whatsoever.

Year five

Again, he has started school late because he didnt know english

Oh god, peteneras is back 🤦‍♀️

Has your son been held back a few years? How can he be 11, nearly 12 and only in Year 5? I appreciate you've said English is the second language but it seems strange he'd be held back 2 years for this.

Are you expecting him to stay 2 years behind throughout his education or have I misunderstood something?

If he isn't in the usual school year for his age I think your first step needs to be to check whether each of the schools would be willing to accept a 13+ application from a 14 year old. I don't know about these schools but I know that some of the academic girls schools definitely won't consider applications from children who are out of their academic year.

Eton's computerised test also factors in age of child when taking it so that may make it difficult.

If he is two years out of year group I would seriously consider using an educational consultant. Observation is that schools like to keep even the absolute brightest within their age groups.

We have known kids who were a year off, because of illness or something. I think Prince Harry and Abramovich's eldest (she because of her English) were a year older, but two years would be a big difference socially. You might struggle to find over-subscribed schools that might consider him.

Just had a quick look and Eton says it has a rule that boys must be under the age of 19 at the start of their last summer term whereas your son would presuambly be that age midway through his penultimate year?

My two children went to Cambridge (local comprehensive). Neither were super bright. Oxbridge works hard to attract people from a variety of backgrounds and increase diversity with regard to applicants. The local all girls comp, near us, got 16% of the year group into Oxbridge this year.
I suspect it is easier to get into Oxbridge from state schools.
Good luck with Winchester, Eton and Westminster. I suspect they are much harder to get into than Oxbridge colleges, many of which are under huge scrutiny to widen access.
If it is any help, Prince William and Prince Harry (lovely men) both went to Eton. Neither went to Oxbridge and Prince Harry gave university a miss altogether.

There is definitely some confusion here about timelines.

If he's year 5 and looking to apply to Winchester and/or Eton, then he won't be going to those in 2 years time; they admit at Year 9, so you would need to have a plan for Years 6/7/8. Can he stay where he is for those years?

As stated above, his being out of year may be an issue - Eton explicitly state that boys need to be under 19 at the end of their last term (so end of year 13) which your son would not be.

Have you actually talked to these schools (and others) about admitting your child out of his regular academic year?

I'm getting quite confused about your son's age and stage. If sitting the scholarship papers is a possibility I believe the schools are generally much stricter about age limits for these so please check! My son was still 12 when he sat them. Make sure you have asked the right questions in checking that you aren't too late for entry pretests, though they may make allowances on those deadlines, Eton's at least are couched in terms of the boy's age, not school year.

If your son has fallen in love with Cambridge on a visit, I think he'd probably also like Oxford - but the important thing, when it comes to that stage, is that they work out what they want to study and where they want to study it! Any of these schools should support that, I'm sure. Admittedly my son, on current form, is likely to end up applying to both (organ scholars being allowed to unlike most!). That's a way off yet.

Scholars at Winchester also wear gowns similar to the description of Eton, to my surprise it serves not only in place of a jacket but also a coat. The younger years are in dormitories - 7 to a room, which won't change by nature of the buildings. Commoners have fewer to a dorm i believe. My son's enjoying the food.

In terms of the scholarship papers, my son and a friend sitting kings scholarship were prepared together last year; the others in their small and excellent scholarship class, probably performing to a comparable standard, were at the top of the scholarship awards for their senior schools. At least double the number of boys were sitting the Eton papers compared to Winchester - I get the impression that they try to filter boys sitting Election at Winchester a bit.

Moving away from irrevanxies about university preferences , Yep - clearing up ages here is key. If your son is 11, turning 12 before the start of September, then he should be in year 7, not year 5. First step therefore will be to see if any school you fancy will accept that far out of age - I would not assume that they would. I do not think he would be able to sit for a scholarship anywhere. If they won’t accept him out of year, you have missed the application process for all three schools, although of course he could sit the scholarships next summer, at the right time, without a conditional place as a punt.

Agreed that Westminster doesn’t work for non-Londoners for the first year or two.

I assume your school isn’t familiar with the UK independent sector as they would otherwise have covered this.

So, first step, call the admissions departments about out of year issues.