Claires Court or Pipers Corner over GS??

[Mumto2two]

We are currently looking at potential secondary schools for our year 5 daughter. She is very able and have been told is highly suitable for GS, assuming she passes the test of course! The school have also suggested she should try out for scholarship to some of the independent schools, of which St. Helen's school has been recommended. However, our daughter has a long term health condition, and we feel aside from the journey being that bit too far, feel that maybe the pressure of an ultra pushy academic environment might be a little too much for her, so are questioning whether somewhere like Claires Court or Pipers corner might be a better fit. Does anyone have any experience of these schools? I hear good things in terms of the schools being nurturing and supportive, but are they likely to stretch the academically able, to the same extent as schools such as St. Helen's or Grammar? Would appreciate any feedback on either of these schools. Thank you.

Part of me also felt relieved that our eldest narrowly missed out years ago, and she went on to do very well, free from the pressure of a grade factory

I think it’s wrong to describe the Bucks Grammars as Grade Factories. They pre select students and so not unsurprisingly they get good results- it would be a worry if they didn’t. I can only speak for Borlase and don’t want to disclose personal information but both my children- one in particular- have accessed pastoral care (on a regular basis) which has gone over and above anything I would expect from any school (state or private). The daily support they are given and the secure, positive environment the school has created for them has been amazing. My child is certainly not unique in these experiences.

In addition the enrichment provided by the school in music, drama, sport and many more areas is superb. The culture of the school is so inclusive and encouraging and students genuinely believe they can achieve anything.

It is very disengenuous to describe it as an exam factory unless you would also describe Pipers in the same way (they, after all preselect their students too!).

I can of course only speak for one grammar but I don’t think the others can be that different.

LAlady that’s really interesting I thought, from what I’d seen on their website/ in the press that it was all a done deal.

Thank you Kitty, Borlase sounds wonderfully supportive, it’s a refreshing contrast compared to a lot of the feedback I’ve heard from other GS school parents. Of course it is all hearsay in that sense, and I agree it would be wrong for me to generalise with ‘grade factory comments, I am sure there are far more positive experiences out there than bad. Some of the children I know who didn’t fare well, struggled to cope academically, and there was a lot of tutoring and frenzied preparation for 11plus. So perhaps their eventuall unhappiness, was more down to over enthusiastic endeavours to get them there, rather than the rigorous pressures of an academically selective school. Thank you for your comments, certainly food for thought!

I agree that the other Grammars are not different. They are a good influence on DCs.

Nearly all my DDs friends have gone to Co Ed Grammars or single sex Grammars which can be accessed from our area. All have liked their school except, notably, the ones who joined at 13 who had failed at 11, 12 and then were forced, via prep school, to have another go at 13. I’m not sure if the Grammars will entertain that any more but it’s a recipe for disaster. Others were pushed beyond endurance with relentless tutoring and several of them really disliked school because they simply couldn’t keep up. All were from my very competitive village!

The children my DDs actually went to primary school with, and parents had a more balanced approach with largely no tutoring, were all happy and did well. Patents who force their children often find it was a mistake and blame the school instead of themselves. The Grammars can always spot the over tutored ones and, frankly, they don’t want them.

With one child in Borlase and another in WH - I definitely don't see Borlase as an exam factory - far from it. In my opinion Borlase has the transition from primary to high schools spot on. Although unfortunately with another child in Wycombe High I do see this school as a factory. While Borlase has 121 children in year 7 with classes of 30/31 - Wycombe High has 195 girls in year 7 with classes of 32/33. Wycombe High is known for an almost university style approach - teachers at the front of the class speaking and girls taking photos of the notes on the board as directed by the teacher so they can study things any home. There is a huge sense of urgency around learning - I am not sure if this is because it is physically a bigger school so class times end up shorter or something. Lots of supply teachers for some reason who don't teach and put videos on for girls.
Borlase with its co-ed classes do a lot more hands on learning. I don't have any experience of Beaconsfield but I know they don't have Ipads for children in each class so I am assuming the girls don't take photos of slides like their do at Wycombe High. Beaconsfield also teach girls computing which is not on offer at Wycombe High - they do Latin instead.
To be fair - I can visually see how Wycombe High is teaching their children - their are copious amounts of notes and testing and lots of guidance on how to improve grades. But there is less joy there. I think because they are girls they are greater expectations on them as girls tend to be more organised - plus also the girls themselves put greater expectations on themselves and things get competitive. I don't have a child at John Hampden but I have heard they are less of a factory than Wycombe High.

Thank you ittakes2, it's really good to know this. It is this detailed insight into the mechanics of classroom learning, that is not always evident from an open day tour, and it's hugely important in terms of wanting a school that not just helps them get a good set of grades, but helps them to find their inner compass and the things that really make them tick; to inspire a genuine love for learning, collaboratively rather than spending a lesson 6 deep in desks, frantically trying to note-gather for later on. This is where the 'grade-factory' fear creeps in. I know all 'academic' schools will have an element of grade pressure, but it's getting that balance right that concerns me most.
In terms of academic independents, we have discounted Wycombe Abbey on the basis of boarding being preferred, and are due to visit Queen Anne's open day in May, which I presume if money were no object, would be a choice that required less comparative thought?!
Thanks for all your comments, they have been really helpful.

John Hamden Grammar is for boys.

The problem with Borlases is that you have to live close to get in. It doesn’t take all who qualify from catchment. It’s very small. That of course is great for those who do get in, but for others the alternative schools will be bigger. I would prefer BH and SWB over WH but you need to be careful about where you live.

We wanted boarding so Queen Anne’s wasn’t for us. However we really liked it. Again it’s not top drawer academically for that area in terms of results. WA does take day girls. Lots went as day girls from Godstowe. If your DD is WA material, why look at Pipers and St Anne’s? Very different.

The current year 10 is the last year at Borlase which offered all of catchment. Current years 7, 8 & 9 offered to just over 3 miles but the offers for the cohort starting in September 2019 are only to 1.79 miles - by my reckoning Marlow & Marlow Bottom only. They are moving to 5 classes in year 7 (as opposed to taking the 5th class in year 9) which will undoubtedly ease the pressure.

OP it’s quite a distance between Queen Anne’s and Pipers! If money is no object and you want single sex then WA is the obvious first choice.

Wycombe Abbey has Saturday morning school and whilst large numbers go home for 24 hours at the weekend, it is still very much full boarding. Being a day girl there would be kind of pointless as days are long and it is for that exact reason as to why we discounted it too. We did really like it though, didn’t feel at all hot-housey and their pastoral care was great. It is full of very bright, driven and motivated ladies though. Not sure I’d want to be bottom of the class there though.

It all goes back to the question, does a very bright child need to be taught with other very bright children in order to get the best out of them? I strongly believe not (well for my daughter anyway) as for her it’s the huge range of other stuff on offer that will give her balance to her life and give her skills that reach beyond the classroom.

Ultimately you know what makes your daughter tick. I believe choosing next schools is a bit like buying a house - your gut tells you what the right decision is.

Money is an object unfortunately, if it was such that we felt there really was no decent alternative, we could probably continue to scrape the barrel, but this is not something we’d be overly comfortable with. A 20% scholarship discount on a 15k day school would of course be more manageable than a full 20 to 25k for places like WA. Having said that, I’ve no idea whether she would be WA material or not. What is WA material?? I know two sisters who went there, and one hadn’t passed the 11plus, whether it just wasn’t prime focus or not I don’t know. Feedback on their time there, was that it was highly pressured, and both were not always happy.
WA was raised by the Head but having said we were not interested in boarding, we were given the impression that they do prefer boarding or at least some element of this, in order to integrate better into school life, and take full advantage of all that it offers. Perhaps this is wrong..there is a lot I don’t know about any of these schools, so all this feedback is greatly appreciated.

WA does absolutely prefer boarders because that’s what they offer. It’s not the school it was 10, probably even 5 years ago in terms of hot house cracking the whip culture. Plus the introduction of numerous open weekends where girls can go home has helped them feel a bit more human.

They look for a very specific sort of girl. Extremely clever girls sometimes don’t even get past the first round - there was a MN post about this a while ago - they look for team players, girls with a natural instinct for learning and with a bit of something about them.

If school was just Mon to Fri then it would be one of our top choices. However, it’s SO full on in terms of commitment to school that it turned us off. Whilst the fees would have been do-able without too many compromises, we would have been in the minority. A lot of girls there come from extremely wealthy backgrounds. That worried us a little too - not sure what social pressures there may be.

Pipers is a totally different school. Not at all comparable, but we like it for very different reasons. It feels relaxed and family like. It’s ok not to be the cleverest so long as you are making the effort. It’s ok if you’re not in the A team for netball, we’ll make sure you can be on a team. It’s ok to just do things for fun without needing to be superhuman and excel at everything. At WA they are just good at lots of stuff - those kind of girls you love to hate. I think that’s the difference. At WA you may go through periods of time not thinking you’re good enough simply because of your peers abilities, whereas at Pipers you are boosted to believe in yourself.

Thank you Zodlebud, I like that comparison Pipers definitely sounds more appealing in that sense. Our daughter is bright and talented at art & music, so naturally we want to nurture that and do all we can to help her talents grow. But even if money was no object, I’m not sure we would want her to be surrounded by such an unrelenting array of stellar brilliance. There is something more reassuringly humble about the Pipers school you describe. It does bring us back to that key question; do bright children really need to be surrounded by other equally bright children, or can they thrive just as well in a less homogeneously able environment. I am veering towards believing that they absolutely can, so it will be interesting to see how we feel about these schools once we visit them. I agree it will be a gut feeling in the end, just as it has been with previous schools we have chosen, but it would be hard to listen to the heart, if the head space hadn’t been reconciled! Great feedback, thank you all

Hello OP
Not sure if this helps but found this on the elevenplusforum and it might be useful.

It’s 2016 data relating to the number of SEN children Grammar schools :

www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2016-10-18/49291/

This is a really interesting thread and so many helpful responses. I’m not from your area but has been interesting to read as I have had a similar conundrum with a gs place vs a less academic independent school.

Good luck with your decision and I wish you and your DD all the best

And I should add that my DD also has a health issue which makes the pastoral side of things and the schools experience with additional needs important.

My sister's three daughters went to Pipers. I don't know how relevant this is, because it was some time ago (youngest is in her early 20s) but the reason my sister chose it was because all three of hers could go there - of the three of them, one would probably have aced the entrance into grammar schools, one might have managed it with loads of stress and coaching, and one would have been very unlikely to have made it. She didn't want to separate them and have one or two feeling they were getting an inferior education to the other/s in the state system (I'm not commenting on whether she was right to feel this, but it's what she felt).

All three of them loved their time at Pipers and did very well there, and they've emerged as confident, well-adjusted individuals with lots of interests. My sister always said the pastoral side was second to none. My academically high-flying niece got brilliant exam results so I don't think there was any question of her not being challenged. But as I say, this is a few years ago now so it's possible things might have changed.

My daughter’s best friend goes to queen anne’s and loves it - long days though. They will let your daughter do a trial day to experience it. Reading abbey is another option from Maidenhead - apparently more academic pressure.

Thank you for the link Confuddled. I guess SEN can cover quite a broad spectrum of issues. I’m not sure where our daughter would fit within that. Reading through some of the Bucks Transfer to Secondary information online, she definitely would be classed as having a ‘disability’ in EQA terms at least. There are some processing issues too, which although not diagnosed as having an SpLD as such, they have been formally assessed and identified.
Pipers feedback all seems incredibly positive this far, definitely worth considering. I had heard feedback from a parent regarding a scholarship girl who is there, that had been average set profile in the primary she left, which seemed surprising, so I’m not sure if that’s all that true!
The Queen Anne’s open day is more out of comparative curiosity. It’s quite a long trek and the long day does look like it might become quite arduous after a while. Fatigue is a regular issue, so this would be a big factor.
As for Borlase, we have been and had a look around, and were very impressed with the pupils we met. There seemed to be such an air of disciplined focus throughout the school. STEM seems popular at A level, but it would be good to know if these subjects are equally popular with the girls, and how are the two genders performing comparatively, results wise. A lot of the single sex education argument, is that girls do better when taught alone, so it would be great to hear feedback that contradicts that!
Performing arts are obviously a huge part of the school’s passion. Would this be a problem for a child who was more of a solo pianist than an uber confident drama queen?? Hopefully not...it’s a lovely school

WRT Borlase it's roughly a 50:50 split between boys and girls. I have one of each there!

I don't know the split of male : female among subjects in the 6th form. Maths I know is the most popular subject by a long way for A level with 115 students taking it last year (77 did Biology, 63, Chemistry, 34 Physics, 49 Economics and 28 Psychology - to give some random selected context 46 did English, 8 Drama, 8 Dance, 12 French and 33 History). So I think it's fair to say the bias at A level is towards STEM subjects. I have a year 11 boy who is not doing STEM subjects for A level (pretty much all his friends are) and there is no pressure one way or the other to conform. I've looked up WHS's A level results but they don't provide a break down that I can find just the headline x% scored A*/A.

For GCSE I know many girls who are doing Computing and Tech and many boys doing Drama (boys do take dance GCSE but to be fair they are in lower numbers).

Performing Arts - there is no pressure / expectation one way or another. Music, Dance and Drama are part of the KS3 curriculum (but they are part of the national curriculum so I imagine all schools study them). Students are encouraged to take part in the arts at school (there are many opportunities) but there is no pressure. I have one child who has never done any extra curricular performing arts and one who has done loads.

Obviously I can only give you anecdotal evidence re how girls perform being taught with boys but I have not experienced any issues and my dd and her friends are enjoying and excelling in all STEM subjects. Certainly at the recent STEM fair there were possibly more girls entering CREST projects then boys. The STEM fair was on the same day as the dance show and many girls and boys were in both - it is not seen as odd or unusual to do both.

Clearly I love the school and it has served both my children well however we are fortunate with many good schools on our doorstep and I am sure that I would have been equally delighted had they attended WHS, GMS, JHGS, Pipers etc. What did your dd think about Borlase compared with WHS? My dd was adamant that she didn't want to go to WHS as she didn't feel she would fit although her best friend did go there and is doing very well.

I totally agree that you don’t need to be taught with a whole school of extra bright children if you are bright. The Grammars are not full of uber bright DC in Bucks. You just need to find a school that meets DCs needs. We liked single sex but neither of ours had much love of science and maths so I wasn’t looking for that. That doesn’t mean the schools didn’t teach those subjects well and where DC went, girls did enjoy STEM and did very well. The advantage of a girls school is being able to be yourself and not feeling you are inferior to boys in some subjects. However many schools actively prevent that now so, again, best fit school is where your DD would be happy. Pipers, I suspect, has fewer scientists but enough. It won’t compare with SWB or WHS though.

Hi Mumto2two
I posted the link as I think it is interesting and maybe an indication of experience a school has of helping and dealing with additional needs... and maybe that in turn is indicative of pastoral care.... I don’t know if there is any correlation but it’s possible I guess. I’m. It judging it.. just wondering really.
My dc has an additional need that requires support but although it’s not a learning need it is health related and causes an a lot of anxiety so am very interested in the pastoral care provision of schools. It does fall under the SEN umbrella although that is confusing as it does, as you say, cover a very broad range of needs.
This is such a lovely supportive thread and lots of helpful advice and information.
I hope you find the right school for your dc and I wish you all the best. xx

Oops.. I meant I’m not judging it.

Apologies for any other typos 😬

Thank you all, such helpful comments. The STEM uptake at Borlase is quite impressive, thank you for the info on this. Unfortunately our daughter was ill on the day I visited the school, so we will have to return later in the year for another look. It hasn’t been a good term for her health wise, so I was very much trying to get a feel for how she would fit in as I walked around Borlase. Academic pressures aside, a very large school environment might prove a little overwhelming at times, so an air of industrious calm in a mid sized school like Borlase, was certainly more appealing than the regimental clamor of a larger school like Beaconsfield High. It was certainly the deciding factor when moving schools at 7, and I do think it will be an important factor again. As with your child Confuddled, the support she needs is more in terms of ensuring she feels comfortable and at ease, and is able to seek help discreetly, when it is needed. SEN has little input in that sense, it is the pastoral care that will be key.
Thank you all

Good luck, Mumto2two and I hope you find the right school for your daughter. Do come back and let us know if you want - I'm curious now to see what you finally decide!

Thank you morningtoncrescent, will definitely be back to let you know. The way things have been steering us this past few weeks, is very much towards keeping pastoral care, low pressure & close proximity as our top three priority, so hopefully we make the right choice

There are plenty of bright girls at Claires Court who have passed 11+ but live in Maidenhead and didn’t make the catchment. They are in set 1 and are given support and challenging work. The school nurses are excellent and your daughter will receive more support at a smaller independent than a state school with 1000+ pupils. Logistically you definitely need to be near the school if you child has health problems. Also consider the commute and length of school day because stress and tiredness will also impact on her health.