Wilson's vs Tiffin

[Charing]

My DS got an offer from both of these top Grammar schools but do not know which one to choose from - help! It is such a difficult decision even after visiting these schools. We are prepared to move near our chosen school so our son will only have 30-35mins daily journey. We very much appreciate any recommendations from parents whose son is currently at these schools.

I know nothing about Wilsons, but be wary of comparing pre-pandemic results. Tiffin changed its entrance tests a few years ago (now maths and English rather than purely V/NV reasoning). The first cohort to have done the new tests did their GCSE's in 2021 so there are no published results, but the Head says in the Good Schools Guide report that they're the "strongest cohort yet": www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk/schools/100553/tiffin-school/78B6E39#tab_review

That doesn't surprise me at all because the old tests were pure tutor fodder and didn't select the brightest. Three very bright boys I know have got places since the tests changed and have done so without tutoring. I know two similarly bright but untutored boys who didn't get into y7 under the previous regime, but later did get into the sixth form and were in the top 20% of the year group for their A level results.

@treblechoc

I know nothing about Wilsons, but be wary of comparing pre-pandemic results. Tiffin changed its entrance tests a few years ago (now maths and English rather than purely V/NV reasoning). The first cohort to have done the new tests did their GCSE's in 2021 so there are no published results, but the Head says in the Good Schools Guide report that they're the "strongest cohort yet": www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk/schools/100553/tiffin-school/78B6E39#tab_review

That doesn't surprise me at all because the old tests were pure tutor fodder and didn't select the brightest. Three very bright boys I know have got places since the tests changed and have done so without tutoring. I know two similarly bright but untutored boys who didn't get into y7 under the previous regime, but later did get into the sixth form and were in the top 20% of the year group for their A level results.

do you think VR/NVR is more tutorable than maths/English? I suppose my instinct has always been that the latter played strongly into the hands of kids who'd been to private prep schools (which I know is slightly less a big thing in the Surrey grammars than in say Kent) and also, the English element anyway, tended to favour kids who'd been brought up by two native speakers, had lots of books around the house, etc?

do you think VR/NVR is more tutorable than maths/English?

They're more tutorable to those without good maths and English skills, therefore not a good prefictor of future success at GCSE and A Level (which rely on those skills).

Of course maths and English can be tutored too, and that is a much better use of parents' money.

the latter played strongly into the hands of ...

Possibly, yes. I didn't say it was more socially inclusive - just less tutorable - I probably should have phrased it as less dependent on tutors, for those who already have good maths and English.

However, the kids I know who got places without tutors were all at state primaries and secondaries and had natural ability which kept them perpetually "top of the class" at most academic subjects - there were certainly other kids at those schools who were turored in maths and English, but that was to help them keep up with other kids at their current school, not to get them into selective schools.

@treblechoc

do you think VR/NVR is more tutorable than maths/English?

They're more tutorable to those without good maths and English skills, therefore not a good prefictor of future success at GCSE and A Level (which rely on those skills).

Of course maths and English can be tutored too, and that is a much better use of parents' money.

the latter played strongly into the hands of ...

Possibly, yes. I didn't say it was more socially inclusive - just less tutorable - I probably should have phrased it as less dependent on tutors, for those who already have good maths and English.

However, the kids I know who got places without tutors were all at state primaries and secondaries and had natural ability which kept them perpetually "top of the class" at most academic subjects - there were certainly other kids at those schools who were turored in maths and English, but that was to help them keep up with other kids at their current school, not to get them into selective schools.

yeah, I dunno. English in particular imo has the potential to screen out quite a few candidates who are perfectly capable of banging out straight A*'s in 'the Asian 4' subjects but who might not immediately recognise biblical allusions or be able to pull a good Homeric simile out of the bag.

anyway, fwiw of all the Sutton grammars Wilson's puts the least weight on VR/NVR and most of maths and English. I can't say I envy the job of whoever ends up marking all those papers (and also question whether this is a good use of taxpayers' money, but that's another question altogether).

banging out straight A Stars in 'the Asian 4' subjects

I haven't heard that phrase before, but assume you mean STEM subjects. Quite possibly, but the admissions criteria for sixth form looks at GCSE grades across 8 subjects. I think the Tiffin head has been swimming against a tide of parents who are only interested in sciences, which may be at least partly why they started to admit girls in sixth form.

It's worth mentioning that Tiffin has only recently started offering Computer Science GCSE, and currently only offers it to boys who do combined (double) science, not separate (triple) sciences. A lot of families aren't happy about that. I think it's partly about managing demand for what would otherwise be a heavily oversubscribed subject, as well as making sure arts subjects are not undersubscribed, and the boys have a 'broad and balanced' curriculum.

re 'Asian 4' - I don't know about a common expression as such but I've heard it used quite a lot amongst parents at the more selective grammar schools, usually in the context of the little talk that a school will have with pupils before their final choice of A level subjects, it kind of going without saying that parents will have influenced if not outright made the choices.

e.g. member of staff: "you know this is your choice, right, and, knowing your strengths as I do, I think you'll be happier and probably get better grades if you go down a languages/humanities/arts etc path".

child: "my mind's made up, I'll stick with the 'Asian 4', please".

Funnily enough, we were having a conversation on Tiffin vs Wilson's only yesterday. I was under the impression that for all the Tiffin Boys hype, Wilson's has been scoring higher in league tables (and continues to go from strength to strength) for quite some years.

But it's probably splitting hairs, as both are highly in demand and attract very bright pupils.

DS attended a super-selective with a high Asian intake. If you look at university destinations and subjects to be read, year on year, none of the Asian boys ever do humanities subjects. Law would be about as far as they'd venture away from STEM subjects.

@NewModelArmyMayhem18

Funnily enough, we were having a conversation on Tiffin vs Wilson's only yesterday. I was under the impression that for all the Tiffin Boys hype, Wilson's has been scoring higher in league tables (and continues to go from strength to strength) for quite some years.

But it's probably splitting hairs, as both are highly in demand and attract very bright pupils.

DS attended a super-selective with a high Asian intake. If you look at university destinations and subjects to be read, year on year, none of the Asian boys ever do humanities subjects. Law would be about as far as they'd venture away from STEM subjects.

these subject preferences are by no means illogical, but there's definitely a degree of ignorance around regarding the importance of degree subjects for many 'prestigious' graduate careers in the city, law, accounting, etc - getting into as good a university as you can, followed by getting a high degree class, are a lot more important than degree subject. I've seen quite a few instances of Asian kids getting worse degrees than they need to through a subject choice that didn't play to their strengths.

Same dilemma here 5 yrs ago, went with Tiffin as it was much closer, never regretted our decision as school suits him so well + my DS is forever running late even though lives only 15 mins away from school. Wilson's would have been a nightmare in this respect.