So disappointed - can anyone explain to me exactly how offers work?

[Coraldress]

I stayed up until midnight to login and find out about ds school place. I'm really disappointed, he has been offered his second choice, school B, a school which has just been rated inadequate.

School A, his first choice, is next door to his primary and is where all of his friends will be going.

What should my next steps be? I've already found out that a couple of people have been offered school A as their second choice. I was under the impression that the LA approached schools with first choices before offering it to those who have it as second choice, but perhaps I've misunderstood. We don't have catchment areas round here, it goes on distance.

I will appeal, but I understand that you must have pretty exceptional circumstances to win an appeal.

Can anyone please offer me any advice?

"IceRebel

There's no need to appeal because it doesn't sound like any admissions criteria have been overlooked or medical needs ignored, so appealing is pointless as it won't change anything."

This would be true for an Infant Class Size appeal (YrR-Yr2), although many would appeal anyway just in case they could slip through the process with a lucky win, but for a secondary school place, appeal away!!

You just have to be able to show that your child needs the place at your preferred school more than the school has a reason to refuse the place. Being 'nominally full' is not the same as being actually full, and it's down to the school/Local Authority to demonstrate that the school is actually full and therefore can't take your child.

But you need to be aware that many other parents may have the same idea, so you will need to be able to convince your panel that not only is the school not actually full, but that your child needs the place more than any other child/children who is/are trying to get the few places that the panel decides the school should be able to open up.

I only ever put down the first choice of school. Never a second or third.

Or I might have put the first choice three times.

Basically that tells them there is no second or third choice.

Has always worked.

@Prettyvase that's always worked because there has been room for you in your first choice school. If there hadn't been, you would have been allocated any school with a place. Only putting one school isn't recommended unless you are 100% confident you will get a place in your first school. They don't say 'this person only put one school therefore they must really want it so we will give them a place' that would not be legal. They gave you a place because you were eligible for one. 🙄🙈🤦‍♀️

Dd is in the same position. Kids from the other side of our village got in, less than half a mile away and this is the first time a child has been refused a place in the school as it’s surrounded by countryside and have more places than children in catchment. It’s really gutting for her although unlike you I am ok with the catchment school offered.

There are people advising op to go on a waiting list for this and other schools. We are thinking of doing this with dd.

Does anyone know if you can be on more than one waiting list at a time?

I only ever put down the first choice of school. Never a second or third.
Or I might have put the first choice three times.
Basically that tells them there is no second or third choice.
Has always worked.

It's only worked because you'd have got the place anyway.

Hundreds of parents try this and are disappointed each year.

As an aside do you really think a computer has the ability to think about why someone might have put the same school three times? Do you really think artificial intelligence is that good?

I really wish people like prettyvase would stop perpetuating this bollocky nonsense.

Yep prettyvase, you've just been lucky. It doesn't 'tell' them anything except you're not particularly bothered if your DC end up in a school miles away.

Op dont lose hope, my friend had this last year and was devastated (her DS was actually okish about it), she put his name on the waiting list anyway and as it happened when he was offered a place only a few months later he was pretty happy in his original school so ended up staying. Friendship groups from primary school do tend to dilute when they go to secondary school anyway ime but I know that's not much consolation now. Hope your DS is ok.

Sounds like there's a lot of misinformation given out. At all of the open evenings the headteachers were saying that if you don't put their school as your first choice, then you won't get in.

It's time for my annual rant about this. Headteachers routinely and deliberately give the false impression that putting their school first is essential to getting their child in. I have had so many conversations with people scared to put their perferred choice first because they think it will mean not getting their second choice either.

Don't beat yourself up about not misunderstanding. It's hardly surprising when this kind of deception goes on.

I have a df who upon divorcing sent her ds to a primary school in special measures in year 5/6 and who regaled in the tales of how his fellow pupils would lob chairs and tables, scream and swear at the teacher and at each other.

Frequent 'lockdowns' and pupils bringing knives to school were every day occurrences and the children had to go through some sort of security check like passport control in the end.

He is now at an excellent secondary and talks fondly of the 'exciting' early education he had and does not seem to be adversely affected by it.

The teachers he said, were absolutely amazing despite what the pupils were like. Her ds did extremely well there.

Being under special measures sometimes means more resources and excellent teachers drafted in apparently.

But I think a lot of people misunderstand what they hear as well. At DD's school open evening in 2017 the head teacher said if you really want your child to come to this school you must put it first on your preference list because it is very oversubscribed. I think some people assumed that meant if you put the school first you'd get a place not knowing that actually the advice was aimed at people not in catchment and that you should always also put down your catchment school. Unfortunately I think a lot of people don't understand how the system works (in fairness I only know because of MN) and so interpret what is said wrongly.

I have a friend who also only put one school (non-catchment) on her form last year. I think she was bloody lucky, looking at the allocation figures I reckon her DC was possibly the last child to get in on distance. This year she wouldn't stand a chance of getting in (massive bulge year in catchment) but unfortunately anyone who hears her experience will assume her method worked.

Thank you for all of the advice.

I rang admissions, they can't tell me anything about waiting lists today, which I knew anyway.

Apparently we are 2006 metres away from the school, and the last place offered was 1705 metres. However, google tells me we are actually only 1827 metres, as the crow flies. Not that it would have made a difference and I imagine they'll say that they use a different calculator.

He said there would be movement on 25th March.

I can't let myself get mine and ds hopes up though.

I know logically that schools can change for better and for worse, friendship groups change and so on.

Looking at previous years admissions he'd have gotten in no problem.

Last child admitted 2700 metres in from school in previous years. Perhaps they've had a huge number of applicants this year.

Coraldress, good luck we were in that position last year. DD started off 1st on list and LA said ah don't worry, that's a really good position then within a few days she'd dropped to 2nd and a different person at LA said maybe to put in for an appeal just in case..... Then a couple of parents at DD's school said they'd declined places so there should be vacancies but we heard nothing. Now I realise that after Mar 1st there is a lull whilst everything shakes down but at the time it felt like that elusive place was slipping further and further away and it was horrible. I know it's impossible hard but honestly I would try to just do something at the weekend to take your mind off it all because until you know where you are on waiting lists you can make no plans.

Waspnest did your dd get in, in the end?

I feel as though I'm having a bad dream and any minute now I'll wake up.

My logical head now tells me this is pretty much out of my hands (short of putting together a good appeal), and that I just have to be supportive of ds.

There isn't really much of a true choice unfortunately. Schools A and B were our closest and the only ones that we'd have had a chance of getting into.

I agree with the other pp. accept the School B place but hold your nerve with the waiting lists.

I didn't get get my 1st choice when dd was going in 2016. However, I thanks my lucky stars everyday that it worked out that way for us as she's so suited to the school.
Having said that, I know plenty of people who have stuck the waiting lists out and been successful either before Sept or just after term starts. One friend of mine applied to one of the most over subscribed schools in our city (used to be a private school) who allocates places by lottery. Her dd missed out on a place and she accepted her local school, bought the uniform and everything. 2 weeks before the beginning of Y7 she got a call from her desired school! Honestly it can and does happen.
Good luck to you x

Thanks Millicent, I know it can happen. It happened some 25 years ago when it was at school! I got offered my first and second choices after initially being offered my third.

The waiting is horrible though isn't it? All I can do is try to take our minds off it.

Yes she did, in fairness we heard relatively quickly (probably about 2 weeks after Mar 1st. She was initially offered a place at a school I'd never heard of (had to google it) so I think I was in shock and didn't sleep properly for those 2 weeks. I'm not really a crying sort of person but I burst into tears when I heard she'd actually got a place.

You need to know why you didn't get school A. If they placed your son in the wrong admissions category, for example, that is a very strong case for appeal. Even if they got everything right you can still appeal as others have said. You don't lose anything by appealing and you might get a place. If you do choose to appeal you will get plenty of help on here from experts.

@PrettyVase - this is what happens when people follow advice like yours: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/secondary/3521044-Upset-for-my-nephew-and-angry-with-my-sister

I have met so many people in my city who don't understand the admissions system and then get angry and upset when they don't get any of the schools they have listed - because they live on the opposite side of the city to all three popular, oversubscribed, academically successful schools they have listed and would never get a place there in a million years. They then get offered the failing schools equally far away, rather than the OK-but-not-brilliant schools they might be within catchment for if they had only put them down as a back-up choice.

There really needs to be better education and information for parents on how the system actually works.

@PrettyVase - that has only always worked because there was a space for your child at the school of your choice. Please don’t give out crap advice!

I sometimes think that the only people who understand the system are those of us who sit on appeal panels and some of those who work in admissions. Certainly most heads and teachers don't really understand it.

Waspnest it's just horrible isn't it, glad she got her place in the end.

Prettyvase has been remarkably lucky. Most people aren’t. There’s a link above to the current thread where a misguided parent listed only one school and was instead offered an unpopular school that she’s determined her child won’t go to.

It’s because people persist in perpetuating this useless and wrong advice, which results in people shooting themselves in the foot, that I and several other posters with experience of appeals spend so much time trying to stop the misinformation.

It's people like Prettyvase who are responsible for many people filling their forms in the way that is the least likely for success.

And whilst some HTs might imply their school needs to be put first for any chance of success, they are partially correct. But I also suspect that many parents misinterpret what they're saying and don't understand the system properly.

I too am amazed by the lack of understanding. We don't live in a grammar school area, but we live next to one. As a result some kids (mine included) do get into grammar schools. Yet I keep coming up against parents who think we are in a grammar school area and either ask which of the schools are grammar schools, or presume that their kids will get in just because they pass the 11+