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Secondary education

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Accept scholarship or simple offer at more academic school?

68 replies

iamapixie · 04/02/2019 09:46

Would be interested to get views...if a DC has an academic scholarship offer from one school (which has 75ish% A/A) and a standard non-scholarship offer from another (with say 85% or into the 90s A/A) which one would you go for? Schools are each lovely in their own ways; great atmosphere; impressive leadership; lots of sport and music; similar journey times. So all other things being equal, would you go for one with a slightly better "name" just for the value of reputation? Or go for the one where DC will be specifically nurtured via the scholarship programme?

OP posts:
misshalfglass · 07/02/2019 09:18

Personally, I would take the scholarship place. The A*/A % is not relevant. Your DD will be in the upper part of this at both schools. At the school with the scholarship she will feel more special, may win more prizes (always good) and will therefore probably have better self esteem. There's so much ahead going into the teenage years and it's the self esteem which needs nurturing. One thing you obviously can't pick is the cohort!!

expat96 · 07/02/2019 09:30

whether just being called a "scholar" will be a way of helping DC

I think this a very interesting question. From a social standpoint, my DCs seem to prefer to be "normal"; they don't like being singled out either direction. Otoh, I think they do try harder if the teachers praise them.

The implied higher expectations from being a scholar can cut both ways. I suspect DC1 would rebel and ask, "why do I have to do more than the others". I suspect DC2 would be much more eager to please the teachers. Of course, this could be because DC1 is approaching the teenage years.

howhowhow · 07/02/2019 09:34

My daughter is same age. My friend is in the same position. Go for the more
Prestigious school. Every time. Unless there is really nothing in it.

wishingforalotterywin · 07/02/2019 09:39

We were in this position and chose the non-scholarship at the more academic school but we knew ahead it was probably our preferred school as the other was a nightmare commute. We now have a small fish in a big pond.

Probably if the commute had been easier we'd have been better with the bigger fish in a smaller pond scenario as less pressure in the overall school atmosphere and a bit of extra attention from teachers.

Where are her friends going? I'd probably try to help her decide

misshalfglass · 07/02/2019 09:51

"one with a slightly better "name" just for the value of reputation?"

"Go for the more Prestigious school."

Better name/more prestigious in what sense? For parents to feel proud of and talk about at dinner parties? At the end of the day it is down to A level grades and what the child has been doing in addition to this- does one of your schools offer more of this than the other? All schools with 75% A*/A will have most students going to RG universities and some to Oxbridge (mind you this is certainly down across the board in the indies near us - none of the schools seem to be boasting about it on their websites this year!).

WombatChocolate · 07/02/2019 10:56

I disagree that it is irrelevant how many get A/A once above 70%. I think that a 20% difference can make a HUGE difference to the cohort, style of teaching and pace. It also is probably the case that the more academic has many more in the A category and the other school more in the A category - look at the split there, and between L7-9 too.

70%+ is good without a doubt. But lots of independent achieve this with a fairly mixed intake. Amongst such cohorts there will be quite a lot of students who need to drop a language, can't manage 3 sciences and get the lower pass grades. And all of that is fine and can be a fantastic achievement for the school and some students. It does however create a very different school to ine which gets 95% and where most of those are A* or L8/9 not L7. To achieve those results, the students are generally more able on intake and therefore the pace of learning is faster, the expectations higher and the range of teaching needed in terms of ability is less.

Of course an able student will do well in either place. If they need a gentler environment perhaps the scholarship place is a better option. If they are lacking in academic self confidence, perhaps it can be positive.I really think though that scholarships make little real impact. Staff will be aware of who are scholars but often it's little more than that. They need to push and provide for all students.

If however, the child is confident and up for a rigorous environment, then believe they are capable of doing well because they have been offered a place. Really academic schools often offer fewer scholarships as they don't need to attract people so much, so not having one is not a sign of being at the bottom of the ability range.

As a general principle, I'd say,gofor the most academic school you can get UNLESS there are specific factors pushing you towards the other - these might be the need for a gentler environment, financial factors, a huge preference for the other place. But if those other factors aren't present (and you say the schools are equal in your mind) then go for the most academic.

It's not about kudos and showing off as a parent. You're paying fees for a choice and you want the best. For an academic child, unless there are special factors which mean a less academic school is more appropriate m the best usually is the most academic, and if you have the choice of both and are looking for an academic education, if both schools have equal merits in your eyes, go for most academic.

Somethingsmellsnice · 07/02/2019 11:29

Totally agree with ChocWombat which is why we chose the more academic non scholarship route for DS. Look at school websites - ours does split out the A*s (8/9) from the As(7) so you could see the split. They do have bearing on uni applications

misshalfglass · 07/02/2019 12:14

I suppose everyone on here is coming at it from their own angle. My DD's school achieves 80+% A*/A and so i'm sure, chocolatewombat, you are right that there may be a higher % of 7's or As than the school with a higher %. What difference does an overall % make for an individual child? I find an overall % meaningless. The university doesn't look at the 7/8/9 split at the school they came from. If there are more high ability students there will be more top end marks, as simple as that. At my DD's school there are plenty of girls achieving all 8s and 9s, even some with all 9s where possible. Why would iamapixie's daughter do any better in the environment where there are just more of them... depends on the child. A very bright, hard working child can do well at both...my daughter did! We chose the slightly less selective and am pleased we did.
I strongly disagree with chocolatewombat that we are paying for a lesser education.!!
Our DD doesn't feel singled out in any way and is just having a great time at school, coming near the top in most things and looking at a medical career, as plenty have done before her....
There are loads of very academic girls, just a slightly wider base.

WombatChocolate · 07/02/2019 12:30

I don’t think you’re paying for a lesser education. That environment may have suited your DD and I’m sure you had good reasons for your choice.

I don’t think it’s absolutey true that a child will get exactly the same grades in either school. You’d expect as both are good schools that a good student will leave with good grades from either. Does it matter if it’s L7 or L9? For lots of courses it won’t, but for the very top courses, people are weeded out based on numbers of A* or L8/9.

I agree that the more academic school prob does better academically as it’s more selective on intake. However being with other and more vv bright kids might push some from a L7 to L8 whereas more being L7 standard might mean it is more acceptable and there is less push from peers or staff to stretch to L8/9. Its impossible to say for individual children.

So, fair enough if the less academic school is a better fit for any reason. I emphasised that several times. But if there is no strong leaning towards either (as Op suggests) then I’d say a general principle is to go for most academic for an academic child. Of course not all wil have that choice or be academic at all.

I’m not criticising anyone’s choices and fully recognise lots of factors are relevant in choosing. Op is struggling and isn’t strongly leaning in any direction and asked for advice - so I just suggested one way to look at it when there aren’t strong factors to lean in one direction.

sollyfromsurrey · 07/02/2019 14:18

People are completely misunderstanding how learning happens. Learning is successful when a pupil has good teaching, the right level of challenge and is happy. There is a massive difference in individual outcomes between a top school and a sink school. This is due to a difficult learning environment where there are disruptive students, where resources are stretched, where learning is not viewed as cool, where social dynamics make it difficult. We are NOT talking about sink schools here. We are talking about very very high score schools vs very high score schools. The difference is not in teaching, home environments, attitudes or resources. The difference is the top top scoring schools have selected top top performing student. THESE SAME STUDENTS WILL HAVE ACHIEVED THE SAME SCORES AT ANY GOOD SCHOOL. The reason the school has those scores is because of the students selected. Not the other way around. The students did not achieve those scores because they went to that school. Pupil A will achieve the same whether they went to tippy top scoring school X or very good scoring school Y. The difference is that tippy top scoring school selected more students like Pupil A whilst good school Y took a broader cohort.

The pupils will be put in sets with similar ability students. The brights students in good school Y will be just as successful as the bright students in tippy top school X. There will just be more if them at tippy top school X. It is irrelevant if there are a slightly larger number of more average students in one school or the other as pupils will be put in sets with similar ability pupils.

Tutoring like crazy to get an average student into tippy top school X will not make them get all top grades. They will be the small % at the bottom. Silk purse/sows ear. And the journey will be miserable. The concern of one school teaching better or having better resources only comes in when you compare a good school with a poor school with major differences not a tippy too school and a very good school.

misshalfglass · 07/02/2019 14:31

I agree sollyfromsurrey!

I take offence to chocolatewombat's ....."However being with other and more vv bright kids might push some from a L7 to L8 whereas more being L7 standard might mean it is more acceptable and there is less push from peers or staff to stretch to L8/9"

If they are v,v bright then they probably won't be aiming for 7's ....if they are that bright then a 9 is expected and an 8 a fall back...that's how it is at my DD's so called "lesser" school!!

Don't know how much this is helping iamapixie!! At least seeing different views....you are splitting hairs basically and your DC will do best wherever they are happiest and you can't plan for that!

expat96 · 07/02/2019 14:35

The pupils will be put in sets with similar ability students.

This is not always true. Four of the top girls schools in London (which had 95%+ A*/A/9/8/7 at GSCE last year) set only in math.

THESE SAME STUDENTS WILL HAVE ACHIEVED THE SAME SCORES AT ANY GOOD SCHOOL.

Saying it louder won't make your opinion any more true. There is a considerable body of research that disputes this.

misshalfglass · 07/02/2019 14:40

expat 96, I'd be very interested to read this research. If you have time would you mind putting the links on here. I'm sure iamapixie would be interested too.
Remember we are comparing a very high achieving school with a very, very high achieving school.

kirsty75005 · 07/02/2019 14:55

My experience (which is mostly higher education based, so may not be relevant here) is that typically teaching standards are not that great in very very prestigious institutions . These institutions do well because they have an intake that is guaranteed to do well. Given that the intake is guaranteed to do well, whether your teaching is OKish or stellar - why bother putting the extra hours in to be better than OKish ? Whereas if there are more students for whom good teaching can make a big difference, there's more incentive to make a big effort on teaching.

Now, of course the peer group of very very bright students is a very important factor - either for good or bad, depending on the temperament of the child. But basedd on my experience, I would not expect better teaching at the more prestigious institution.

WombatChocolate · 07/02/2019 15:16

Again, I am not calling any school ‘lesser’ or saying anyone has made poor choices in their children’s school. I fully acknowledged several times that there will be good reasons for choosing the slightly less academic school if one has a choice. I really can’t see that there is scope for offence here. And I have suggested what I said is one way of looking at it, that Op might consider, and after all she did ask for thoughts.

Academic schools tend to set very little. Often there is zero setting to start with and later just in Maths. This often takes the form of 2 or 3 sets or bands. So most teaching is done in ‘mixed abolity’ Groups. In all the schools we are talking about, there isn’t the full range of ability but the more selective has a narrower range. And yes, good teaching can deliver to all of that range well - of course. However the fact remains that a wider range probably alters the pace of some lessons and may also act the curriculum offered in some ways. These things are not problems, just realities to bear in mind when selecting schools for individual children. This will matter to some parents and not others.

It’s impossible to say that in 2 good schools, children would achieve the same grades in either. No child goes through education on 2 schools so it’s impossible to say this. We know that in studies of good comprehensives comparing outcomes of similar cohorts (based on starting point) to those in state grammars and selective, there is little uplift. There is some uplift but it’s less than a grade per subject. Many conclude a good comp will do as well for a clever child as an independent or a state grammar.

However people still choose the more selective seeing value in both grades but also learning with a narrower range of ability. It’s one view that many have and continue with, feeling there is more certainty of the very top grades from such a school. Again, for individual children we will never know.

No-one is criticising schools which get 70% A-A* and which provide all kinds of other benefits. In lots of areas these will be the top academic schools. In other areas they won’t and parents like those on this thread will choose them (sometimes over the more academic and sometimes over a less academic option) for all kinds of good reasons. No problem with that. No criticism of that.

Perhaps views on this become rather influenced by school playground chatter and pecking order perceptions. In some areas X school is seen as THE top school. I’m thpse areas where people have a choice of X and Y, Y is rarely picked. That doesn’t mean Y isn’t great school or the best option for some children, but parents at Y can feel sensitive about their choice and as if they are being criticised and feel the need to defend their choice. They don’t. And doing so probably fuels any ideas people have that X is better. It might be more academic and it might be better for some children and Y for others.

But people often have to choose between x and y. That’s what ops doing. Some say go for the scholarship school and bring a big fish in a small pond. That’s right for some children. All saying is being a little fish on a big pond can be right too for some and unless there were factors pulling me to the small pond, I’d go for the more academic. It doesn’t mean I think the other is rubbish or want to insult parents who’ve chosen the alternative.

I think there’s some sensitivity displayed here about being at an academic school which isn’t the very most academic. I don’t think there’s any need for it. Your child did well st their school and you chose it for good reasons. It’s not the right choice for all. Some may wish for the narrower range of ability. Equally valid.

expat96 · 07/02/2019 15:17

misshalfglass here are three which indicate that there is a significant positive peer effect on outcomes. There are many others but I chose these three because they all used regression discontinuity approaches to examine effects on students who just made or just missed a cutoff to be assigned to a classroom or school with a high achieving peer group. That's as close as you can get to a randomized experiment, with only very few exceptions.

Otoh this study uses the same methodology and finds no significant effect from attending schools with a higher achieving peer group. This paper might actually be more relevant to our specific discussion, though, because the students who just missed the cutoff for a very, very highly achieving peer group mostly went to the next best schools, which had "merely high" achieving peer groups. However, you should note that the schools in this study are much larger than most UK schools (certainly any that achieve 95% A/A at GCSE) and do* practice setting in most subjects. Please also note that this study addresses the situation of bottom qualifiers at the top school vs top qualifiers at the next school. It does not explicitly address the effects on students who would have been comfortably inside the top school and therefore more of an outlier (out of place) at the next school.

misshalfglass · 07/02/2019 15:40

Thank you expat 96

I've had a quick scan. The first three i can't see much relevance to our discussion. We're not talking about a "cut-off" student and we don't live within a Chinese, Kenyan or Icelandic education system. As you say the NY one comes closest.....but not to op's query (she has a DC either right at the top or very near the top).

At the end of all this I agree with chocolatewombat, either opinion is valid and you can't live the other life. I was merely pointing out that the what's believed to be "the best" isn't always better. Put that needle in the haystack.....

Greenleave · 07/02/2019 16:04

I am interested in the discussion too. I do think the quality of teaching helps massively given the same cohort. An example is the top private and top grammar might have the same cohort at year 7 however top private are always overperformed the top grammar. It could only because better teaching. Given the same quality of teaching then yes the cohort plays an extremely important role, being mixed with the top cohort definitely is the most important factor in the child’s education life if he/she is an academic and thrives in a competitive environment. We have almost made our decision opting for the scholarship as it is substantial, no condition attached to it, the school has always on either top 10 or 20 with regard to A level result.

WombatChocolate · 07/02/2019 16:14

I totally see that a scholarship with substantial value will swing it in the direction of that school for lots of people. Most of even those paying fees would look twice at a substantial fee reduction. Absolutely. Different factors swing it for different people - having the best results, being nurturing, geographical location, extra curricular focus, siblings, schools that suit a certain personality type, SEN provision etc etc.

expat96 · 07/02/2019 16:16

misshalfglass I was merely pointing out that the belief that good students will get the same results at any good school is not necessarily true. There is definitely a positive peer effect when there is a large difference in peer groups. Given that, the question becomes: How small does the difference have to be before the effect disappears?

I agree with wombat that a classroom that achieves 95% A/A is substantially different from one that achieves 70% A/A. I believe the 95% A*/A class will be substantially easier to teach, both because the abilities and/or effort of the class is more homogeneous, but also because the average ability and/or effort will be higher. Because of this, a teacher should be able to cover the material in greater depth for the entire class. But this is only my belief. Perhaps the teachers on the board disagree.

iamapixie · 07/02/2019 16:17

Thank you. So many interesting points. Perhaps oddly, I hadn't really considered the academic side of it - never thought of DC as "academic" - so seeing the discussion move towards that has really focused my mind on what my issues are, namely the far more tenuous ones around confidence, being surrounded by enough geeks (!) to not mind being a bit quirky through the teenage years, being resilient enough to try things out and not fear failure etc. After all this soul-searching, I do hope I don't send dc to a school which just happens to have a horrible cohort for some mad reason!!

OP posts:
Somethingsmellsnice · 07/02/2019 17:35

My son was an academic scholar at a school similar to school B (rather than calling it the lesser one). However he was very much a lazy/do as little as I can get away with type of boy. If he had stayed at school B people who were at the same level as him (other kids with academic scholarships) when he left that school got a mixture of grades from 9 down to 6s and 5s even at gcses. The school would have been ok with him getting 6s and 7s as long as the majority of his marks were 9/8s. He would have coasted along at the top of that cohort assuming he was "great"/doing well/absolutely fine.

Howver, he left after year 8 and went to a school like school A and got eight 9s, two 8s and a 7 (MFL and have since discovered dyslexic!) even though at school A he was not in the top 2 sets.

He was happier feeling more normal/average/not singled out as the boff and worked at the level the other (very clever) kids worked at which was a higher level than school B. Now as we have moved on to A levels it would appear after discussion with school B parents as many are still friends of ours it would appear that school A kids are finding the step up to much less of a problem than school B kids.

So whereas I agree some kids will do well wherever they go some very clever kids will adapt to the norm and not fulfil their potential.

It comes down to what school do you think is best fit? There won't ever be a wrong decision because if you chose one route you will never know what would have happened had you taken the other route.

Namenic · 08/02/2019 06:30

Depends on the cohort. I got a scholarship and there was pressure (more a feeling within myself than imposed) to maintain high standards. A little bit of bullying at 12/13 age but fizzled out.

Liked school but was relieved to go to a uni where there were lots of smart people who worked hard too. Felt kinda nice to be normal with no pressure. The peer effect was there too - so I knew how good the top people were and it made me want to work harder.

Namenic · 08/02/2019 06:31

But your DD does sound like a different personality to me and may prefer more attention etc. As you mention above.

LucheroTena · 09/02/2019 08:14

I would hardly call a school with 75% A/A less* academic. I would say that sounds like a very able intake and excellent results. Some schools get higher positions on league tables because their entrance criteria are higher. They have a higher percentage of ‘more able’ students.

Whether you would prefer the prestige of attending a school higher in the league tables over a scholarship with percentage off fees is up to you, and how well off you are. I would say that unless the higher league school is Eton or one of those ‘names’ most people won’t have heard of it.

If money isn’t a concern then I would decide based on which school gave you the better feeling. Which would they be happiest at? An able child who is happy will do their best.

We picked the lower school in league tables over a much higher option. Without a scholarship. DD then got awarded an academic scholarship in year 8. I’ve never regretted it. Decision was made as DD didn’t like the higher league school, it has local reputation as hothouse, all the kids there want to do medicine, it has less ethnic mix, the offer holders day placed too much emphasis on its league table position. It just didn’t feel right. But plenty do well there and she would have been ok at either.