League Tables using Grade 5 as a "pass" for GCSE?

[Boyskeepswinging]

Why do the league tables published today report on the percentage of children achieving Grade 5 in English and Maths?
I thought that most universities, colleges etc class a Grade 4 as a pass, not a 5?

My DD did the new style GCSEs last year and most of her college courses for A level wanted a minimum of a 6 (B) for English and maths.
So Ignore the 4. Aim for at least 5!

... and that is exactly what I mean! Why on earth should a school be setting higher entry standards than a university!? What are students with 4s and (in this case) 5s meant to do??

But the requirement of a 6 is for a specific A level subject. A 4 simply wouldn't be adequate for A Level study of that subject and a university wouldn't be admitting someone who had a GCSE L4 in the subject they wish to study at degree level.

The school isn't setting a higher standard than the university - the university is asking for a basic level of rounded education (very basic with just a 4 in Maths and English required) as a GENERAL entry requirement, but will then have specific course requirements related to A a levels or Btechs or whatever have been taken.

I think the point about those with 4s and 5s in this case, is simply that they aren't going to be going onto university. I wouldn't have thought that was a surprise really. Degree level study isn't something which is meant to be available for everyone and the grade requirements reflect this. Someone who has a 4 at GCSE in a specific subject does not go onto get a high level at A Level if they take it and is most statistically likely to get a U or not complete the course - which is why there is an entry requirement. It isn't the universities job to make degree courses available for all regardless of their ability or qualification level.

Maths is an extreme example, but most places will require a 7 or even an 8 for A Level study. Why? Because evidence suggests that those taking it with less are likely to get an E or below. Would it be right for schools or colleges to accept students into courses who have almost no chance of success? Already, some take students who have little chance of success in that A Alevel with perhaps a 5, because they want bums on seats and the funding. But do the students and their parents know the statistical likelihood of different outcomes from tht starting point?

So a 4 in Eng and Maths might be set as a basic minimum requirement for the sign of overall pre-16 education to a bare minimum (and both basic maths and English are needed by most jobs and courses) but no one is saying that then gets you onto particular courses. If by chance someone only had Maths and English at L4 and nothing else, they couldn't be admitted to either Maths or English A Level nor any other A Level. There might be other courses they could be admitted to. And someone with perhaps 5 L4s at GCSE including Maths and English and no grades above this L4 wouldn't be suitable for A Alevel because although they have 5 passes, they wouldn't be if a sufficient standard in any individual subject. Again there will be other courses.

The problem often lies in people thinking a pass at GCSE (call it a 4 or 5) means they are suitable for A Level in that subject. They may well be qualified for some kind of L3 study, but A Levels need more than a 4 and really more than a 5 too. The idea that anyone with a clutch of 4s is then ready for A Levels and University is the next logical and appropriate step are simply not quite aware of the reality. But this is what many people seem to think, especially parents. And many are so sure that A Levels must be the next step and then Uni must be the next step, for children whose academic profile just isn't suited to that.

This doesn't mean the education system has failed. Success isn't that everyone goes to university and does a degree. However, if appropriate options or accurate information about what is available and requirements, then it has failed.

The reason the colleges want a 5 or usually a 6 in Englsih and Maths and certainly the subjects to be studied at A Level, is because they know from experience that those with a 4 are not successful at A Level. They want successful candidates for their League Tables, but also, is it fair to take students onto courses they cannot succeed in? Wanting to take a course (and many want to do A Levels because their mates are or because they don't really know about alternatives) is not a good enough reason for people to be funded onto their courses.

wombat there are some sixth forms who won't let students in without 6+s in everything, regardless of subject choice.

You must live in an area where there are plentiful post 16 options! In my area, it is sixth form to staudy A Levels; a limited smattering of BTec options or a small scattering of apprenticeships in very specific fields.

Students with 4s or 5s and above in subjects are more than capable of passing of most A Levels.

btw, my DS has Cs/ 5s in most of his subjects (with a couple higher and one lower) and is in sixth form , and applying to university. He has 5/5 offers for uni places.

Soem of those Cs would be 4s in new money. Admittedly, his English is a 5 , and his maths a 6.

Please don't write students like him off!

I would disagree. To get a decent grade at A level you need a 7. Otherwise you’d struggle.

The new GCSEs are significantly harder/ there’s no coursework and tougher concepts and a lot more content. Just making things harder doesn’t raise standards and the fallout for teachers and students is huge.

Depends rather on what you mean by 'decent'.

Musmerian Sat 26-Jan-19 18:24:35
I would disagree. To get a decent grade at A level you need a 7. Otherwise you’d struggle.

Not necessarily. Infact some students start subjects at A Level for the first time without learning them prior to the September.

The entry for the sixth forms locally, including two high achieving independents as well as some high achieving state schools simply say 5 GCSEs are a grade 4 (or 5 in a couple) and above. Some ask for a 5 in maths (such as computing) and some ask for a 5 in english (eg drama, sociology, psychology). For science and maths there is usually a requirement of a 6 at the higher attaining local schools. The colleges locally have lower entry requirements but they focus on qualifications other than A level.

Children mature at different levels and learning capabilities are not always linear. For some the different type of learning involved in A levels can just click into place better, especially when they aren't having their time stretched to other subjects they may have no interest in but still need to study and revise for.

Someone can mess up GCSEs and do well at A levels, and vice versa. Other factors come into play.

Besides - not all courses and future study/employment needs the child to get a A/B at A Level. There are many courses out there for students who have lower A level grades which are still a pass.

I mean A* - C. In my experience students doing English Lit A level with a B or below struggle to access the higher grades. A levels aren’t for everyone and I think we try to push too many students through them.

Statistically, in some subjects like Maths, with less than an A at GCSE (old measures - easier specification) the majority of candidates got an E or U.

If you think that's worth going for, worth funding etc, then you think differently to me. What I'd say is that people need to be aware of the likely outcomes from different starting points.

In other subjects an A or 7 won't be needed, but a 6 often is. These students will usually get C-E grades and usually at the lower end. As mentioned,there are university courses for them. I really think that someone being allowed onto an A Level in a subject where they got a 4 at GCSE is extremely negligent. The reality is that their chances of passing the A Level are very low.

Can anyone give examples of subjects where the kids are admitted into A Level with a 4 in that subject? The only reason I can see that happening is colleges or schools desperate for funding and more interested in that than the students having a decent chance of success.

A Levels are as their name suggests advanced study. A Level 4 has not been called a 'good pass' and while is meets a certain standard is not the standard suitable for A Level study in that subject.

I can see there is a difficulty for students with all 4s and 5s about next steps. However, I think appropriate courses and steps after those courses are needed and A Levels and university degrees are often not the appropriate steps. Again, simply wanting to do it, doesn't make someone suitable. It also does have to mean they are 'written off' - but other good options need to be available. And if they aren't, that still doesn't mean A Levels and uni are the right options or where they are likely to be successful.

I would say to people in the position of a child with 4s and 5s wanting to do A Levels, ask the teachers at the school/college to give you the results of students with similar GCSEs over the last few years. That can be eye opening. And if the requirements strike you as high and excluding your child, ask why, and they will explain the outcomes for those with lower grades. It might not be hat you want to hear, but it's worth hearing the reality. In our day, someone with 4xC at GCSE was pretty normal for A Levels and whilst probably not leading to stellar A Levels and Universities got some a series of Us and others 3 lowish grades which then got them to a lower level uni. With grade inflation etc, more is needed these days to access the A levels and do well. League tables mean schools don't want lots of Us, but they do want the funding students bring and there is always a tension there.

Not a 4 in that subject, no. But we were talking about English and maths. Students at my school can enter sixth form with those grades. Quite afew - but not all- A Levels will be closed off to them. My school gets very good A Level results.

Yes, well often you need to meet a general entry requirement, plus subject specific requirements.

Some 6th Forms only offer A Levels. Asking for maths and English at a certain level sounds reasonable as both skills are needed in life and many subjects will use both skills even if not in an obvious manner. Asking for perhaps 5 or more subjects above a certain level also sounds reasonable as a general requirement, because for A Level studies you want students who have achieved at a good level across the curriculum, not just in one or 2 subjects.

If colleges or schools also offer Btech or vocational courses their requirements might be different, but for L3 post GCSE courses, I'd still expect English and Maths to be a requirement, in the same way it is for most jobs. Some Btech courses might give you admittance if you had other higher grades are we're re-sitting maths or English. An A Level calibre student would usually have both English and Maths and has been said,usually with far in excess of a 4 or 5. I think they are both basic,nc ore skills which impact on other subjects and requiring them both is reasonable.

yes, English and maths are a requirement : at grade 4 minimum!

you would only resit maths and English if you missed a 4. We do ahve afew in our sixth form who are doing this, mainly maths resit, but a few in English. Arguably, they are indeed our weakest students.

We only offer one BTec, so these are predominantly A Level students.

All the students, bar these few, have the qualifications needed to apply at least to university.

To get on to English faculty A levels , we require 5s in English and English Lit. But RS, for example, requires 'at least a 4' in English.

wombat, what is your experience of non selective, comprehensive schools? Genuine query!

I have worked in both selective and Comprehensives with 6th Forms in schools. In all of them, there have been general entry requirements and also specific A Level course entry requirements and in all of them, students have left at the end if Yr11 because they didn't meet those entry requirements or what the school offered didn't suit them.

I have known people with children who achieved Cs in GCSEs be allowed onto college A Level courses where they achieved a C at GCSE in that subject and bomb out, dropping out during the L6th or after failing AS exams, or re-taking the L6th year to then fail ASs again, or even being allowed to continue to take the A2 exam and then getting U's. I have known parents of these children say 'they underperformed at GCSE and all they need to do now is work hard and they will do well at A Level' or 'Lots of people perform better at A Level than at GCSE'. I have also known people with this kind of starting profile achieve a couple of E grades, often after dropping down to 2 A Levels.

OK, but you must also have known the opposite. I do know lots like you describe. But also know those who manage just fine from middling to mediocre GCSE results.

But,equally, funding issues mean bums on seats are vital in a state sixth form and it is a financial risk to raise entry requirements.

If someone sat RS A Level, with a 4 in English, what would you expect their A Level outcome to be? What would the requirement in RS be or is there only a requirement based on English? I realise a few might take RS A Level who haven't sat RS GCSE?

What do you think ALIS would suggest is the likely outcome in RS A Level from a starting point of a 4 in English GCSE? That might be the 6th Form requirement, but do you think it's the right one? Also genuinely interested.

I do understand the bums on seats funding needs for schools and colleges - to get the money in when budget cuts mean every students count, and also keeping them on the courses to ensure the funding remains. I can see the tension against what is best for students and also league tables interns if results.

I think too often now the reality is that schools and colleges are so hard up that they can only think about the money side of it - that is their pressing short term need, and they decide they will worry about the results later, and perhaps not the individual students enough at all, to be honest.

The key is honesty with students and parents. Being clear about likely outcomes in different courses from their starting point, plus what will be available next with those likely results is so important. I don't think that honesty is always there and many parents don't know the right questions to ask or think far enough ahead, and just to the fact they want their child to A a levels regardless of if theyvar suitable, or that their child wants to do the same as their friends.

DC's comprehensive (with a sought-after sixth form, where the vast majority study A-levels, with a very small number of BTecs) has a minimum entry requirement of 5s in Maths & English (as part of an overall requirement of 5 GCSEs, 3 at 5 and above, 2 at 6 and above).

Within this, most but by no means all of the subjects require one of the '6s and above' subjects to be relevant to the A-level. Maths and Further Maths require more. A number will accept anyone who meets the overall general requirements. Despite the 'published requirements', the school regularly accepts students with 'spiky' profiles who are strong in areas related to the subjects they are studying but weak in others e.g. exceptional artists who need to re-take GCSE Maths or those gifted in Maths / Physics who do not meet the requirement for 5 in English.

It consistently has very high value added scores for 6th form, suggesting that pupils make very good progress to A-level from these starting points.

However - importantly - it exists in a good local 'mixed economy' in terms of Post 16 provision - from very very highly selective (requiring an average result of more than 7 over 8 GCSEs) to college courses meeting the needs of students needing Level 2 qualifications including Maths and English retakes. More isolated comprehensive sixth forms, with a much smaller number of options for post 16 students locally, would need to offer a wider range of options with lower entry thresholds to meet local needs.

We don't use ALIS, wombat. we use ALPs. I frequently get students in my A Level class (won't say the subject but it is a literacy based one) with very mediocre GCSEs which, through the vagaries of ALPs are then indicated B grades. Which is bonkers, obviously. Some do get this, though. Most get Cs. Very few get Ds and we have never had an E (yet : this year will be different, I fear).

More isolated comprehensive sixth forms, with a much smaller number of options for post 16 students locally, would need to offer a wider range of options with lower entry thresholds to meet local needs.

Thsi reasonabley accurately describes the provision in my LA! Although my school actually offers a lot of A Levels. We have always prided ourselves on our open access, but we do debate it every year.

I agree about being honest with students, but ALPs stats do tend to suggest they will perform well : so it's all a bit awkward.