Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

EBACC - meaningless or useful?

27 replies

Biscuitsneeded · 21/01/2019 13:53

Please can someone confirm for me that the EBACC is just a piece of Govery? ie. the balanced spread of subjects is desirable but not essential? And they don't actually gain anything by getting the Ebacc combination other than qualification for the one university that has stipulated it as a requirement? DS' school only gives them three options and he has 2 subjects he is burning to do (drama and politics) which means he can't then fit in a humanity AND a language... However, he's in top sets for everything and I foresee a battle when we tell them he can't fulfil the EBACC requirements. Just want to be sure of my facts! Many thanks.

OP posts:
titchy · 21/01/2019 15:46

Meaningless!

TeenTimesTwo · 21/01/2019 15:47

There isn't even one university stipulating it as a requirement.
The one you are thinking of just makes students study an MFL if they don't have the GCSE.

Only 3 options seems incredibly narrow if a humanity / MFL aren't already mandated. Are they mandating everyone does triple science or something?

MintyCedric · 21/01/2019 15:48

We're in the same boat - DD top set so only gets to choose 2 of her GCSEs (church school so she also has to take RS or Citizenship).

She's made her peace with it now (they don't offer a huge range of choices anyway) and decided what she wants to do but I agree it is a total pita.

DinkyDaisy · 21/01/2019 16:05

My ds capable of doing a language well but desperate to do geography, history and music. It simply didn't fit. He got his way...eventually...
He would have resented dropping one of the others though I do think a shame he has dropped the language. However, he is enthusiastic about the subjects he has chosen and that is a plus.

Original poster
Biscuitsneeded · 21/01/2019 16:05

Ambitious state comp. Double or triple science (TBC) , maths, 2 x English and very annoyingly ethics (which is dressed-up RE) are compulsory. Not a church school, very diverse, so the RE thing is really irritating. That leaves only 3 options in timetable (lots of twilight offers but they don't suit DS) and they are pushing Ebacc. I actually would really like him to carry on with a language - he's perfectly capable - and he would do so if had one more option. I think it's madness to push EBACC whilst in same breath insisting on ethics. Surely that could count as a humanity anyway?

OP posts:
DinkyDaisy · 21/01/2019 16:15

RE used to be a compulsory gcse but not now. I think they all enter a form of qualification as a 'might as well' if not doing gcse RE as have to do the subject even not as a gcse. Can't remember what it is but lesser than gcse I think and not an option choice as such.
I am pleased as would have been irritated if a choice taken up by RE.
The 'ambitious' comp near us more strict round this sort of stuff though.
I like my ds's comp as does, as far as possible, look to the individual child.

Marmitemadmummy · 21/01/2019 16:22

Meaningless. My DS was the same tops sets for everything and didn't do the Ebac. There was a careers fair at school and all the top universities there said much better to do the subjects you would like to. We are now choosing a levels and you can do geography a level without doing it at GCSE.

Aftershock15 · 21/01/2019 16:44

Is politics not counted as a humanity? Could he do drama as an out of school extra curricular? Drama seems to be one where the grade is determined partly by the work group so he could fail to get the grade he deserves if he is unlucky in his project group.

The ethics might only be taught in the lessons where they are have to teach RE/PSHE - not a full subject timetable block - so might not be as pointless as it seems. Years ago I did O level RE just with the 35 minutes lesson a week that the school were legally obligated to teach. We had to do the lesson so the school crammed another Olevel in.

Original poster
Biscuitsneeded · 21/01/2019 17:00

School drama is amazing and the teacher is inspirational. I don't think he'd do as well anywhere else and it is his passion in life so I know he will work hard at it.
Yes, for me politics is a humanity, but they're only letting them do it alongside history or geog so that's his 3 choices filled - no MFL. Am really very cross. I could talk him out of politics but his next choice was textiles. The only way he will get a language in is if they let him have another choice instead of ethics.

OP posts:
clary · 21/01/2019 18:59

Sadly (well I think it's, sad) more and more schools are allowing fewer choicrs (and choosing in yr 8) which is really reducing the breadth of subjects. My dc do 10 if they do triple science but I know plenty of schools that don't even do ethics as a compulsory and just offer eight GCSEs. A mate of ds2's told me hi option choices - PE! He had to do Eng x2, maths, science x 2, history or geography and French, plus one free choice (wow!) making eight in total.

Anyway to answer your op, while a spread of subjects is clearly desirable and you clearly see that op, the Ebacc is nonsense, you get nothing, it takes you nowhere. As a former MFL teacher I would rather not teach kids who have been forced to take MFL over a preferred computing or tech or whatever.

Ta1kinPeace · 21/01/2019 21:54

Utterly meaningless
do what is right for your kid
not the school league tables

BringOnTheScience · 21/01/2019 23:13

Utterly meaningless Govery.

Do the subjects they want to do. The subjects that they want to put effort in to. Then they'll get good grades.

LooseAtTheSeams · 22/01/2019 08:32

No one cares about EBACC. I think schools might still have to include statistics on who took it but these are pretty meaningless - 8 of DS's subjects were on the EBACC list but no MFL so he won't show up on the statistical measure!
DS2 chooses options soon and is adamant that he won't do French.

WhyAmIPayingFees · 22/01/2019 16:12

Yep. Meaningless, except for suggesting a head who cares more about league table drivel than meeting pupil's needs. Compulsory RE is crap as well. Do you have an option of another school without this nonsense? We actually filtered out schools for consideration if we discovered Ebacc or RE obsessions. DS doing Music, Comp Sci, Mandarin and German, no History or Geography and no f*ing mumbo jumbo at all.

BubblesBuddy · 22/01/2019 16:24

I do believe it is desirable to have a broad and rounded education where children are bright enough to do it. I don’t know of many schools that offer Politics at GCSE because it’s simply not needed. You can do Politivs A level perfectly well if you have taken GCSE History. So it’s a bit pointless, academically, unless you really like it. To get over this problem, the school shouldn’t offer it. A MFL at a decent grade says more about a person in some ways but, as no one cares, MFL will continue to decline and I’m sure the number of wannabe drama students will continue to rise and, after years of training, never get any work!

Original poster
Biscuitsneeded · 24/01/2019 22:18

Sorry not to update sooner. School has clarified re 'ethics' that, because they have by law to cover some RE, they do 2 lessons a fortnight and get a GCSE out of it. It wouldn't be possible to do any other subject in that slot because 2 lessons a fortnight wouldn't be enough time for a more rigorous subject. So I am slightly less annoyed about that. It won't do him any harm. Do agree that a politics GCSE isn't necessary but would worry about DS embarking on a A-level without some way of being sure it was for him. Totally agree that MFL at a decent grade says a lot - am an MFL teacher and know how difficult it is for a lot of kids. But I also think drama is hugely valuable even if you don't want to pursue it as a career. Essay skills support English (and vice versa), it is great for learning the value of teamwork and cooperation, helps kids be confident when speaking/presenting etc. So we're still stuck at drama as the only definite but am hoping DS will pick history and French as I think that makes for a good balance.

OP posts:
MaisyPops · 25/01/2019 18:56

In terms of a qualification/concept, ebacc is meaningless as it's not a stand alone qualification.

That said, I do think it's a good idea to encourage most students to study a broad and balanced curriculum to 16. Some schools I know get good progress 8 scores but run a 3 year ks4 and heavily restrict access to traditional subjects. I dont think that is in the pupil' s interests.

WhyAmIPayingFees · 25/01/2019 19:16

Yes but breadth can be achieved in many directions. My son is doing options in two languages, music and computing which is perfectly broad but just not in the directions Gove thinks matters. Current State-defined breadth is just not good enough.

MaisyPops · 25/01/2019 19:56

I'm not saying the ebacc is perfect and agree there can be breadth in other ways, but what is going on in some schools (and was rife prior to it being a meausre) was schools actively denying students the chance to study traditional subject and filling their timetables with subjects of little value to the student but would boost the A*-C percentage.

I don't think everyone should be forced to do a humanity and a language but I do think there needs to be something to safeguard against narrow curriculum decisions e.g. students do humanities or an MFL

Some English departments teach GCSE style questions from y7 and extracts over whole texts. They start GCSE in y9 so students get a narrow ks3 core curriculum, lose the wider subjects by taking options in y8 ready for year 9 and then the options are limited.

WhyAmIPayingFees · 26/01/2019 11:19

Understood but I think the main problem you cite is best dealt with by putting minimum requirements on what is offered not in setting artificial constraints on choices.

ihearttc · 26/01/2019 11:47

DS1 is in Year 9 and his school do EBACC and chose options in Year 8.

DS1 actually wanted to do History, Geography, French and Spanish which more than fulfilled the EBACC requirements but his teachers actually talked him out of it.

At the moment he is doing double science (they don't start triple science until year 10), English Language, English Literature, Maths, Spanish, Geography, GCSE PE and Media Studies so Im happy that he is getting a wide variety of subjects. He was told that doing 2 humanities and 2 languages was quite restrictive and he should widen his options.

PettsWoodParadise · 26/01/2019 12:11

If you see a school with 100% ebacc IMO it should ring alarm bells as it often means they are insisting on subjects that students don’t want to do. Some languages also don’t count towards ebacc and some what I would consider humanities don’t either so it can encourage schools to narrow a curriculum. I get the idea of having a rounded education but the ebacc doesn’t seem like the best measure to me.

basalcell2244 · 26/01/2019 20:57

Petts - out of interest which languages don't count towards ebacc??

PettsWoodParadise · 26/01/2019 23:22

Hi Basal, good question. I remember when DD started doing Latin being told it wasn’t part of EBacc as only MFL were, but it looks like they’ve admitted ancient languages now after consultation so I was incorrect. Sorry for the confusion.

blackeyes72 · 27/01/2019 08:58

Interesting, we were worried about this ebacc too.
Dd1 wants to do French, Latin, Music, triple science and further maths, which doesn't leave room for history or geography - which are her worse subjects anyway!!

I am glad to hear it won't matter so much...

Swipe left for the next trending thread