11+ process has to change...

[Gorobe]

Dd took 11+ test at Wimbledon High last week. Sadly dd didn’t pass first stage. I suspect she did ok but not well enough to get through to the second round. Although dd is not highly academic, dd is an all rounder. She throws herself at sports, music and drama. She spends a few hours every week training. She loves it and is especially good at swimming and music. She has a full and well balanced life but now that she didn’t pass, I’m wondering if we should have spent all those extra hours revising instead? I know her friends who got through to second stage have tutors and definitely do lots more revision after school. I didn’t realise it’s that competitive! We don’t have a tutor. I believe she has done enough at school and comes home with an hour of homework everyday. My dd is bright, her scores at school are good albeit not the strongest but she’s creative and full of curiosity and drive. WHS advised against tutoring and yet they have put girls who have been heavily tutored through to the next stage. We have a few more weeks to go before dd sits for more tests in Jan. I’m panicking and think I need to find dd a tutor but don’t even know where to start. Does this mean there’s no place for well rounded children in 11+? How can schools even tell that these academically ‘gifted’ children have been tutored? Schools should look closely at children who have invested time in equally healthy pursuits. If my dd had spent more time revising, I’m sure she would have passed first stage. But is this what senior schools want from children? Am I too late in finding dd a tutor?

Also the old classic about loving reading, English, writing stories etc is always good.

State grammar schools should be scrapped imo. The 11 plus is a horrible experience and system. If you live in 11 plus area it will affect your DC regardless of whether they sit it or not.

Private schools can obviously do what they like but I wouldn't choose to enter into that system and I dont see the point in complaining about something you chose to do.

The 11+ tests children in ONE exam on ONE day
I know bright kids who didn’t do well and not so bright kids who did well due to coping well with pressure and having food exam technique.
It’s VERY unusual for dc to do well with no tutoring or at least doing lots of practice papers
Dd did really well but we aren’t putting her brother through it because he’s equally bright but in a very different way, which really isn’t compatible with the 11+ exam
I don’t know what the alternative is other than scrap the system completely

Private schools can do what they like on entry selection.
If you do not like it, do not join in.

I hate that the school heads continue to push this line of "you don't need to tutor". It's utter bollocks in London and they know it. They know 100% of their intake will have been prepared either by their prep school, a private tutor or by parents sat with the prep books. Either way you cut it they are all prepared in one way or another and that IS tutoring. The head of our prep finally stopped bullshitting and asked that parents let the school know which tutor etc so they could work with them. The senior schools will waffle on about all arounders but what they mean is all arounders who are bright enough and have been adequately prepared to pass the test. The academic senior schools live and die on their league table results. They want the parents who are willing to tutor and support in any way necessary. To say other otherwise is disingenuous.

Did the head of the prep recommend WHS as a good choice? If so I wouldn't be very impressed. Usually the heads are fairly conservative in their recommendations. Is it a rigorous prep that has a selective intake at 4+ or 7+?

In the past tutor meant externally taught/coached by someone with fee. It should have meant extra preparation for a test regardless by whom: from a prep(school), a tutor or parents. Many parents claim, our child didnt have tutor, only prepared by us via doing a, b, c. Well, its no difference. Prep/external/parents preparation dont guarantee 100% success unfortunately, how the child performs on the day can depends on loads of other things. I wish her best of luck for the up coming exams, there is still time. She might be better motivated after this experience. Fingers crossed. If we couldnt get rid of 11+ at all( and to be honest, its the only way to go to a selective school, it could be academically selective, musically or sport etc. there will be auditions, exams etc) then may be another approach from state schools is by just having tests in primary. I come from a country when everyone has exam every term from year 1 so really used to taking exam during school years.

I dont know what the answer is but i agree it has to change (or be abolished?). ATM grammar schools mostly just save well off families school fees.

Teacakesandcoffee01 - super tip about the book. Have just bought it on amazon. Thanks also for the heads up on SHS. This is dd’s second favourite school and her SHS workshop is next week! Really appreciate the good advice.

Massive thanks everyone once again for your insight and wisdom. I do feel ever so slightly more hopeful. There is clearly a huge problem with the 11+ process. WHS as well as the North London Consortium recognised it and hence the new admission process. However I’m not so sure if the new admissions are any fairer or less stressful but it’s a start...

Why don't you consider comprehensive schools? London state schools are among the best in the world (check scores compared with other OECD countries) and most have a broad intake so they are entirely able to teach to the top and the bottom of the class.
Me, my DD and my brother all went to London state schools and got As/A*s at A level.
They are also free and no entrance exams.

Emanuel is changing its entrance procedures. They can no longer interview every candidate (numbers were ridiculous, guillotine falling months before expected deadline).

Unless you are a sibling, or are going to be offered a scholarship in music, drama, art or sport(those candidates only need meet the basic pass mark; though that has been rising, and every now and then a sibling doesn't join) it's going to be the highest scores. The score you need as a gift-time, non-scholarship candidate has risen considerably in the last few years.

It's sheer pressure of numbers that makes it so stressed, and you do get some odd outcomes. As long as you applied for a range of schools, and those schools are ones your prep HT thinks are suitable, then it's very likely something will come up.

Some state school are very good - though in that part of London may have an entrance test (eg the Wandsworth test) and selection is by address (distance) or just random (lottery). If you don't live close enough to the ones you like, you could end up with a very bad fits school indeed.

In olden days, the 11+ was just something that everyone did and there was no preparation, other than what went on in school. It was intended to show the capability of students, with questioning that couldn’t be rehearsed prior to the test.

Maybe that’s what it should be now. I think it could be detrimental to mental health, to have been tutored so heavily to pass a test and then find that the day to day effort and ability required is stressful.

This thread is muddled up between the 11 plus (state school) & private school entrance exams. Private schools can select however the hell they like. Saying that the entrance procedure for a private school has to change is daft. Noone is forcing you to put your daughter in for the exam. If you were in Buckinghamshire or Kent (fully selective counties) & applying for state schools your title would make more sense.

Is it not perhaps more of a case of accepting that your daughter is going to be great at many things, and probably have a very well rounded life, rather than prep the hell out of her to pass a test. Surely it will mean that throughout secondary school she will then struggle? I entered the grammar system 20 odd years ago, and looking back as someone now involved in education , the teaching was appalling! We were all basically expected to cope on our own.
Things may have improved since, but that could be the reality for her. Would it be worth investigating an academy that specialises in drama or sport perhaps?

OP I’m sorry your dd didn’t get through, and I hope she has success elsewhere and finds the right school for her.

From my perspective, the main problem with the 11 plus process is that it’s so many exams in quick succession - it’s a lot for a 10yo. I’d prefer a S London version of the N London Consortium process, where one exam does lots of schools. My dd had Sutton High, WHS and SPGS first stages on a Friday, then the following Monday and Tuesday - that felt unnecessarily pressured. Even if they only shared the first stage, that would be a start.

And we haven’t tutored (well, depends what you mean, my dd did practice papers at home with us) and she isn’t at a prep, so it’s been about as low pressure as you can get in the circumstances.

Comprehensive schools are an even better option
no stress
no exams
no fees
kids still achieve their parents goals

Hi Gorobe, I totally feel your pain! I’m going through this process, having applied to the same schools on your list and a few others, for the third time and have become very jaded!.
I was very naive with my first. We were at a state primary and DD had one hour tutoring a week of English and maths from spring year 5 but we didn’t do any reasoning, nor did I spend our holidays doing papers, nor did I have any clue that at the local prep schools
on top having intensive practice in exam technique many of the children were having tutoring on top from subject specific tutors. It is so highly competitive and you are quite right the heads all discourage tutoring and then inadvertently shut the door on many of those who didn’t receive it or had comparatively little. They simply cannot know. What is particularly unfair though is that as you say it’s disingenuous of the heads to imply they can tell when they discourage tutoring. I now have one child at a “super selective” and one at a less but still highly selective (hey it’s all relative!). What I have found is that I suppose for the very reason so many children make it through exams for which they have been prepped since year 4, once they arrive some, unsurprisingly, struggle. This means even in a “super selective” you get a range of abilities and in a slightly less selective you still have some very very capable children, and the children all develop at different paces so some only start to fly academically in year 9 but never would have passed a highly competitive exam in year 6. So try not to worry, the main thing is everyone one of your schools will enable your daughter to flourish.

Finally, I know the north London consortium changed their exams to reasoning to make them less ‘Tutorable’, but of course Tiffin girls a few years ago decided that reasoning was SO tutorable they would replace it with maths and English. There is no winning! What would be nice is if the London indies clubbed together and said kids can on,y do a max of five and they will do the same exams, say two English, two maths (to cater for different school styles), various reasoning etc maybe over a few days even, you List your five choices in order and then see which (one) letter arrives in Feb.. Hey ho!
At any rate in retrospect I rather wish I had sent both my kids to the slightly less selective option. Some of the parents at the “super selective” pressure their children enormously (suspect they were doing hours of tutoring!), and even when th school does all it can to put the brakes on that, its permeates everything (kids going well beyond time allotted time for homework, fine if they love it but not great if in year 8 they can’t fit in any extracurricular), kids crying for fear of their parents if they get a 98 etc!, and I fear my child feels like she is in a pressure cooker. )-:

“There is clearly a huge problem with the 11+ process.”

If you are talking about the actual 1+ for state Grammars: yes, huge problem. It divides children between Grammar and what is essentially a secondary modern on one day, one test, divides by one mark and treats those whose parents can afford 3 years of private tutoring the same as those on FSM.

But you have chosen of your own free will to put your Dd into an optional system to select a private secondary. They are businesses. Tney can do what they like. They select the children they believe will push them up the league tables. Some prize sports or music, some provide a less selective environment for those who don’t get into the academically competitive schools. You were just naive.

I hope your Dd isn’t too badly knocked back and that you will find a school that she is happy in I am sure you will.

The key thing with the Y7 process is that you have to choose the right school for your child? Whether that's a grammar, a comp or an independent school.

The grammar school process is really broken IMO - a one day snapshot of a 10 year old determining whether their tutor did a good enough job? pah.

The 11+ process you are talking about is a different kettle of fish. You yourself describe your dd as not being top of the class academically. Sorry, but that is what WHS are looking for. So maybe she would have passed had she been tutored, but ultimately it doesn't sound like the right school for her? If she's sporty/musical and academically ok -then you need to choose a school that fits that combination? Am not an expert in SW London but there must be some schools that would suite her far better than WHS? the application deadlines have officially passed now - but most independent schools will be flexible if you can explain your case well?

Do any of the other posters on this thread find it rude and /or hilarious how all references to state school and the genuinely shite 11+ system are being studiously ignored?!

Hello OP, are you receiving?

But isn't that because this thread is about the London independent 11+ process which is completely different to the Grammar school 11+ process?
I don't think the comments are being ignored as such, they are just not relevant to the OP and it doesn't need to be another State v Private thread..

NoLeslie for the bulk of the private-school cohort, state schools only exist (so they've heard) for other people's children out there somewhere . . Except possibly for the odd Superselective grammar school, naturally! Selection, segregation, more selection, more segregation . . . Anything to reassure ourselves that Our Super Children are properly distanced and distinguished from the great unwashed mass of Other People's . . .

NoLeslie That’s because Talkinpeece (under various variants of username) has well-known views on selective education. There’s lots of threads to debate that. The OP has no doubt weighed up her options and made her own decision. I’m sure that you and others disagree, but on this thread she’s seeking support for a disappointment, and she’s focusing on responses to that. Which I think is fair enough.

Maybe - but it doesn't take long to post 'sorry, I meant to say xyz' though does it. No excuse for bad manners.