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Secondary education

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Setting for Maths in Year 7

340 replies

lucyanntrevelyan · 01/11/2018 21:07

Can anyone tell me if their DC school does not set for any subjects even Maths at Year 7 ? This is a change the school have made for this year which I have just discovered at Open Morning. (Previous DC at school have all been set for Maths from this point in Year 7 and for other subjects in Year 9) I am not clear if there will be setting at all for the current cohort. My DC is very able at Maths and my research has suggested that not setting for Maths is a disadvantage for higher ability children. The Maths department told me 'research suggests mixed ability is better' but didn't give me any indication which research? Can anyone /teachers enlighten me with what research this was so I can be better informed and reassured this is the best thing for my child.

OP posts:
Clavinova · 07/11/2018 12:29

It still shows that 80% of French population achieved a standard in Maths that is at least slightly superior to GCSE

Even if that were correct - at what age did they achieve this benchmark? In 2017: 140,000 French students sat their Bac aged 19, 34,000 aged 20, nearly 10,000 aged 21 etc.

cakesandtea · 07/11/2018 12:48

The 80% figure is 'in generation', i.e. per year of birth. The per academic year figure is 90%. Brevet is also 90%, so I would gess that is the policy, how they calibrated their exams. Obviously it is not an identical measure.
Still, the broader point is the French system deals with the majority without sets, and with a 10% minority who miss by repeating the years. It has a transparent system to deal with the problem of learning pace and time, and provides for equal opportunity.
Do those who repeat Bac at 21 have to pay tuition fees, like in UK?

MadameChauchat · 07/11/2018 12:49

Just imagine that 90% of students actually cal solve quadratic equations... I don'tr know, like the Finns, the French

I don't know about the Finns and the French but I just had a look at the Dutch maths exams for the 'bottom' stream of Dutch secondary education, attended by roughly 40% of all pupils. These exams are taken by those pupils at the age of 16. There are no quadratic equasions in sight at all! Or any algebra, really.

cakesandtea · 07/11/2018 12:51

I am not suggesting we should copy all of the French , or Finish etc system.

cakesandtea · 07/11/2018 13:10

The 'bottom stream' not being great at maths at 16 might be a result of sets, i.e. streams. The centrifuge effect of pacing progress by top attainers reduces the attainment in the middle and at the bottom. The Dutch may have dealt with this by watering down. Belgium has the same 'cascade' problem into lower streams highly correlated to socioeconomics, they realised the higher stream is ethnically and socially homogeneous groups over represented in higher streams and ethnic minorities are overrepresented in the lower stream. They have reformed their system recently to maximise the mixing and movement between streams and allow second chances. They get qualifications though to go on to FE and employment. Not having GCSE English and Maths is detrimental to that.

MadameChauchat · 07/11/2018 13:50

The Dutch were actually praised after a recent Pisa report for getting the lower achieving pupils to a very good level compared to other countries. So streaming might have benefitted those pupils. These exams taken by the 'bottom' stream may be watered down in the sense that there is no algebra etc but yet they seem to be at a good level overall.

Clavinova · 07/11/2018 14:50

Still, the broader point is the French system deals with the majority without sets, and with a 10% minority who miss by repeating the years

PISA survey stats for 2015 (published 2018 - page 14) show 22% grade repetition in France (down from over 35% in 2009) - 35% grade repetition/retention in Belgium
20% in the Netherlands.

www.oecd.org/general/searchresults/?q=grade%20repetition%20pisa%202015

The Bac professionnel is equivalent to BTecs. But the latter are also accepted by universities

According to the British Council in Paris, entry to a British university with the bac professional is possible, but unusual (The bac professional is not highly academic) Kingston University's Art School will let you take an art course with a Bac Pro.

Still - everyone in France can sign up for a degree with a Bac pass - but over 70% fail to complete a degree within three years.

France, where the grossly unprepared try for maths degrees

www.economist.com/leaders/2018/05/05/france-where-the-grossly-unprepared-try-for-maths-degrees

Under French law, any student who passes their baccalauréat by scoring an average of at least 50 per cent has a theoretical right to enter the university course of their choice. Nearly fifty per cent fail their first year.The equivalent failure rate in Britain is 8.4 per cent;

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/french-universities-crisis-low-fees-and-selection-lotteries-create-headaches-in-higher-education-10517241.html

President Macron plans a radical overhaul of the baccalauréat to improve standards;
www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/france-to-overhaul-the-baccalaureate-in-tricky-school-reform

cakesandtea · 07/11/2018 17:30

Clavinova, you are right, all that is true and consistent with what was already said. So what does it change in relation to the first quote in bold? The big picture?

Still, the broader point is the French system deals with the majority without sets, and with a 10% minority who miss by repeating the years. It has a transparent system to deal with the problem of learning pace and time, and provides for equal opportunity.

I don't want to go on and on about France, and certainly, you can count on politicians, the public, and the press in any country to cry that education is in crisis and standards are not what they used to be, just like here..
My example was not really about maths in higher education, and the Bac as like for like equivalent for the purpose of Maths degree completion. Although Scientific Bac would be a relevant contender. My point is about a balanced, holistic qualification, a required level of general knowledge of a good mix of 'facilitating' subjects, including compulsory maths, that can be successfully taught to 80% of population, without sets.

Seemingly 90% of the cohort (with some repeaters) can also achieve a Brevet at 15. France is not unique, Poland, Estonia also perform well in PISA and good Matura outcomes and you can't assume absence of poverty.

British students also resit failed grades, and good passes they want to improve, possibly a number of times, until they get English and Maths passes for jobs and FE.

What is the fraction of Brits in any year of birth who have good GCSE English and Maths regardless of resits?

English and Maths GCSE are a gateway to employment and Further Education in UK, this is why I talk about that. GCSE are also the benchmark of successful completion of 12 years of school. It is a general measure of holistic education for a 16 years old. It is the last time students study a broad range of subjects.

I am not even comparing Ebac pass rates vs Brevet, although it would be a more accurate comparison. Brevet and Bac force a broad and balances mix of subjects with compulsory maths.

England: entering Ebac 38%, completing Ebac at grade 5: 22%
www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/compare-schools?for=secondary&show=All%20pupils%202018&datasetfilter=final

British universities also consider some combinations of A-levels and alternative qualifications on a case by case basis. There is also clearing and Foundation year entry and a number of alternative routes.
The possibility to register at university with a Bac applies only to general universities and I don't suppose they can register for a Maths degree with a humanities Bac professionnel. I mean those who really want to take Maths to high level in France would have a STEM Bac and would apply to the selective Grandes Ecoles via Classes Prepas - which are essentially selective first two years of a 5 years university study, which is customary. A good French degree is Bac+5(years) .

British universities, especially the lower ranking, have huge drop out rates as well. Have you actually looked into the finer details on unistats.ac.uk/searchresults/
I don't know the overall figure and the worst performing courses, but for example drop out rate of Bucks New university for Computing is 47%, Lancaster 24%, De Montfort 20%. The % of good degree classification of Royal Holloway is 52%.

The important difference is that British universities have second (the second second) and third class degrees. I am not sure they exist in France and elsewhere. You cannot pass to the second year there with an average below 13/20 if I am not mistaken. They will not issue a diploma with an average of below 13/20, while in UK it is lower and the first year does not count towards degree classification. So I kind of see why the drop out rate appears higher in France. There is also a bigger step up in terms of teaching style from Bac to university there.

But my point is not about Bac as an entry into university Maths degree, but as evidence of possibility to educate a summary 80% of population to a good standard of Maths without sets.

Clavinova · 07/11/2018 20:33

Still, the broader point is the French system deals with the majority without sets, and with a 10% minority who miss by repeating the years

The OECD/PISA survey disagrees with you on this point - over 20% of French school students repeat a year.

I am not even comparing Ebac pass rates vs Brevet, although it would be a more accurate comparison. Brevet and Bac force a broad and balances mix of subjects with compulsory maths

Not really - one fundamental difference - the Ebac requires a certain pass mark for each individual subject examined - the Brevet is awarded as an average score across a range of subjects - it is perfectly possible for students to achieve 8/20 for Maths, with 12/20 for French and still achieve the average pass mark of 10/20.

Clavinova · 07/11/2018 20:41

EBacc

Spanish10 · 07/11/2018 23:03

My DD is in year 9, in set 3 for maths. A few days ago I went to parents evening and the maths teacher told me that she is more likely to take foundation maths. I am not very happy because when she is doing the end of the topic test ( they are the same in set 1, 2 and 3) she is getting higher results that some of her friends in set 2. I told the teacher that I better get a tutor because sometimes she is doing things that she have done in primary school and they are not teaching her all the curriculum.

noblegiraffe · 07/11/2018 23:07

sometimes she is doing things that she have done in primary school

It’s a spiral curriculum and kids need to revisit old skills so that they don’t forget them. Don’t assume it’s a waste of time.

If she is getting higher marks than some friends in set 2, ask what she needs to do to move up a set.

Namenic · 07/11/2018 23:15

Do extra work with her either yourself or get a tutor. It’s good to practice topics frequently as after a while our memory fades. This is a good article:

mathagogy.wordpress.com/2017/07/29/the-best-we-can-do-7-the-spacing-effect/

Good to start in year 9 instead of just before gcse.

cakesandtea · 08/11/2018 20:35

Clavinova,

But you prove the point. It is possible for a child with 8/20=40% to pass because mediocre maths must be balanced by high scores in science, humanities, oral and written Language, plus MFL. Not an easy mix. Here 35% fail English and Maths GCSE, Ebacc pass rate is 21%.
It is not possible to pass Brevet if the teacher rates class performance as 'insufficient' and exam scores are below 50%. That's where 10% fail rate comes from.

All students are taught and sit the exam with functions, quadratic equations, geometry and complex problem solving. Those who pass do achieve rounded mastery of maths at the suitable level.

And look, I found the quadratic equations!
The Beautician (Services specification) in Bac Pro, sits a maths and science exam with ...trigonometry, differentiation, quadratic equations, statistics and optimising shelf space and credit annuities - photo

Noble's point about people never needing trig, apparently even a beautician can use that to estimate building extension for her private practice.

To your point about hairdressers, maybe this perception is the problem. It is a good thing that those in vocational jobs leave school with good qualifications, they feel validated and proud.

Minor discrepancies of exam specs are irrelevant.
Nobody suggests repeating years, 10% could be dealt with by good intervention.

The broader point is it is possible to teach secondary school qualifications in maths without sets and enable 90% in a year, 80% in birth year to succeed. The 'pipeline' enables higher proportion of students to achieve better standards. Unlike the 'centrifuge' of sets.

What percent of students in a year of birth, say at 25, have the required pass of drade 4 GCSE English and Maths?

Setting for Maths in Year 7
Setting for Maths in Year 7
Setting for Maths in Year 7
cantkeepawayforever · 08/11/2018 20:49

Cakes,

Since Grade 4s were awarded for the first time in summer 2017 (as I presume you know), that is perhaps a little difficult to answer.

Do you mean 'C and above in the old GCSE or level 4 in the new one?' As far as I recall, both were / are norm-referenced exams and so the % passing is set by government, not according to what the students know or can use.

noblegiraffe · 08/11/2018 20:55

Noble's point about people never needing trig

My what now? I had a roofer once tell me at Parents evening how he used trig so that doesn’t sound like me.

FYI solving quadratics and trigonometry are on the Foundation paper, as is plotting functions.

MaisyPops · 08/11/2018 21:14

cantkeepawayforever
Anyone would think that norm referencing is what stops everyone getting above a certain grade . Smile
It's not like most people have been saying this for pages... and pages... and pages.
I admire you and noble for continuing to present rational and sensible perspectives in the face of repeated illogical, inaccurate and/or false assertions.

Clavinova · 08/11/2018 21:33

Here 35% fail English and Maths GCSE

Is that 35% fail English and Maths GCSE or 35% fail English or Maths?

But you prove the point. It is possible for a child with 8/20=40% to pass because mediocre maths must be balanced by high scores in science, humanities, oral and written Language, plus MFL

I'll try.
In this example, the candidate has done well overall, but they only scored 40% in their externally marked French exam (UK students sit English of course). Their teacher assessment for Maths was below 50% - perhaps the Maths exam was an easy one that year? Their best subject appears to be Art.
www.frenchpropertysearch.com/pages/information/french-education-system/college/diplome-national-du-brevet/

UCAS equate the Brevet to 4 GCSEs at Grade C (this was prior to the recent GCSE reforms) - that wouldn't get you into a decent sixth form to study A levels in England. The Brevet is a Year 10 exam though.

Clavinova · 08/11/2018 22:30

and taking this into account they calculated that “in a generation”, meaning by year of birth, 79% pass the Bac

Your 79% in a generation appears to be 61% - lost in translation!

C i t é S c o l a i r e I n t e r n a t i o n a l e
4 place de Sfax B.P. 1570
38012 Grenoble Cedex 1 F R A N C E
telephone : 33 4 38 12 25 00 fax : 33 4 38 12 25 20
counselor: Gregg West [email protected]

"A brief explanation of the French National Education system...
French high schools prepare students for a battery of exams administered by the university system called the Baccalaureat or BAC.There are several versions of these exams. Just under 80% of students who take the exams pass them, but they represent only about 61% of their age group, because 39% have opted for lower qualifications following orientation with a counsellor, or have attained no qualification Among the 61% who get a BAC, just under half (28.5% of the age group) have studied for a degree which will allow them to enter professional life directly (vocational, technical and professional BACs), most often because they are not fully qualified for university level work. The other half of these BAC recipients (32.4% of the age group) have obtained a general BAC, far more difficult academically, in one of three branches: scientific, literary and economic/social studies. Over 80% of those who take this exam pass it due to prior streaming and selection. The exam includes separate tests, each several hours long, in every subject area studied (please see "academic program" below). Scores are multiplied by coefficients, then added and averaged to get the overall score which must be above 10 out of 20 to pass. (see "grading system" below) (for example, on the literary Bac, French scores are multiplied by 9, Philosophy scores by 7 and science scores only by 2. In contrast, on the scientific Bac, Math scores are multiplied by 7, each subject in science scores by 6 and French by 4.)"

The important difference is that British universities have second (the second second) and third class degrees. I am not sure they exist in France and elsewhere. You cannot pass to the second year there with an average below 13/20 if I am not mistaken

11/20 is a 2:2

www.brighton.ac.uk/international/study-with-us/your-country-info/france-equivalencies.aspx

cakesandtea · 09/11/2018 07:28

Clavinova,

www.frenchpropertysearch.com/pages/information/french-education-system/college/diplome-national-du-brevet/

Thank you for this example with transcript paper, it illustrates my point exactly.

In Maths, the child got 9/20 in the teacher assessment, but 30/40 in the exam. Pass.
In French, the child got 16.5/40 (40%) in the exam, but 19/20 in teacher assessment. Pass
In detail, French exam was 8.5/15 in essay writing, (57%).Pass.
But the problem is 7.5/25 in dictation. [could actually be mildly dyslexic...]
In addition, the child got:
10/20 in English
12/20 in Biology and geography
16/20 in Physics and Chemistry
10/20 in PE
20/20 in Arts
16/20 in Music
15.5/20 in Technology
16.5/20 in German
14.5/20 in Civic life, whatever it is
5 an extra credit for Technical Drawing

So this child seem to be gifted in Arts, but has clearly passed Maths and French individually and all of his subjects collectively. She looks to me like a well rounded and reasonably educated 15 years old. A six-form would judge her on her merits.

And there is no need to snub child's success by saying exam was easy.
Some DC / subjects do better in exams, some in teacher assessments. It is often discussed that continued assessments when used appropriately could be a good thing in this country.

Your 79% in a generation appears to be 61% - lost in translation!
cache.media.education.gouv.fr/file/RERS_2018/31/0/depp-2018-RERS-web_1007310.pdf
from www.education.gouv.fr/cid57096/reperes-et-references-statistiques.html

Not at all. The 79% is from state statistics booklet which you read, on page 222, line 3. On the right there is an explanation of methodology. It explains that those 79% is a figure in the modelled population, recalculated from the entry and pass rate of that year 2017 (88%), taking into account repeats. If every year the demographic split of ages/sex of who enters, the entry and pass rate were the same as in 2017, then If you take 100 people at random, 79 would have Bac. Something like this. That booklet is for 2017. Both in 2017 (page 2018 line 2) and in 2018 www.education.gouv.fr/cid132822/resultats-de-la-session-de-juin-du-baccalaureat-2018.html
the Bac pass rate in year group was also 90%-tish (88). So your quote must be outdated. They do say in the booklet (page 218) that the pass rate has improved by 13 percent since 1995.

Many do argue that Bac Pro is not a real bac (part Btech) and standards are going down and education is in crisis, like in every country, basically. And of course there is even higher degree of snobbery. Having taken a look at the lovely maths exam paper for the Beautician and the Literary bac it seems they reach a reasonable level of maths, which was my point. It is possible for a larger proportion of population to learn maths to at least GCSE level and succeed in their qualifications.

The student numbers in booklet also speak for themselves.
720700 students entered Brevet (page 216 line 1) . 732700 students entered Bac (page 218 line 1). These are comparable figures given variation in birth rate. There isn't a drop out from 15 to 18 years old exams, increase could be due to repeating. So I am not sure where the 39% drop out are.

Do they set in Primary school? I am not sure they set within the same secondary qualification. The comments about streaming in your quote refers to Bac, Literary vs STEM, vs Pro etc. Even with streaming they are all taught a reasonable level of maths (Beautician exam paper) and their final qualifications are not devalued. There is no lower ceiling for the grade they can obtain in different streams. Those with Bac Pro have not failed Level 3 qualifications and received some replacement Level 2 certificate of functional skills. They graduate validated and empowered, which is the main point.

I don't really want to go back over details of other countries because it is beside the point.

The problem imo is, 25% fail SATs and with the flightpath, they are not on track for grade 4 with an average rate of progress. If they are locked in low sets with diminished curriculum, those DC exit secondary school without the main Level 2 qualifications the secondary school is for. Children starting in Y7 in lower sets do not have sessions with councillors and parents to tell them they probably will have Level 1 qualifications or Functional skills...

To not lose the wood behind the tree, mastery and qualification in Maths could be improved for larger number of secondary school children. It is a good thing.

The broader point is regardless of the nuances and bickering around detail, 88% or 79% could leave school proud, uplifted and empowered.

Clavinova · 09/11/2018 08:21

So your quote must be outdated. They do say in the booklet (page 218) that the pass rate has improved by 13 percent since 1995

My extract was from a pdf created by an International School in Grenoble - a pro forma on the same page is dated 2013/14. Their figure of "just under 80%" ties in exactly with your "79% in a generation".

I would argue that this school - based in France, knows a lot more about the French education system than you do.

14.5/20 in Civic life, whatever it is

Vie Scolaire actually represents points for good behaviour in class/school, although it looks as though this might have been phased out in 2014/2015.

Your original claim that 79% of French students are educated to A level standard, grade C and above is a nonsense.

noblegiraffe · 09/11/2018 09:05

Some DC / subjects do better in exams, some in teacher assessments

Teacher assessment is horrendously flawed and should be taken with a huge pinch of salt. It’s affected by all sorts of things including social class, race, sex and the subconscious bias of the teacher. Exams are more objective (so long as marked anonymously).

cakesandtea · 09/11/2018 13:15

2014 was before they reformed the Bac and pass rates increased sharply as graph page 223 shows. Private school marketing.

Your 'under 80' ties with 88% who passed Bac in 2018.

Candidate numbers are simple
2018 765500 entered Bac, 675600 passed ; pass rate=88.3% gov site
2017 732700 entered Bac, 643800 passed; pass rate= 87.9% (pdf page 218)
2017 796449* enter Brevet, 720700 passed; pass rate = 89%
(* student population in year Troisieme, pdf page 91, line 23, column 7. Passed - page 216)

Repeating years dropped sharply from 9% in 2000, to 0.4 - 2.2% in 2017.(Table 2, page 91)

My point was 79% have passed a maths qualification equivalent or superior to GCSE.

Namenic · 09/11/2018 20:37

Cakes - why not do functional skills first then foundation then higher paper? Now that kids have to study maths and English until they either get to 18 or get a 4 this should give more time for those who need it. Parents have a role to play if they can - and should be given early honest assessment of their child’s readiness for each level

For those who can go faster why not let them? The education system only has a limited amount of money and Most people would say it should teach the population as a whole the skills the country needs (not everyone needs everything - I don’t use trig). We have a lack of maths and science graduates. Schools must also ensure kids are at the right level for uni.

cakesandtea · 10/11/2018 02:18

It is a false dichotomy that teaching middle ability somehow deprives a generation of skills. It is an absurd myth. There are no real data, just repeated assumptions.

It is also a myth that top sets somehow accelerate progress. If they were going faster, they would be graduating from university at 18.

The mentality about valuing the able and not valuing the average learners leads to using teaching methodology focussed on particular type of most able students, which holds back, slows down the development of the middle and lower ability students, while sets cement the disadvantage. This is cynical and cruel. UK is unique in this. I am bored of repeating that other countries do much better for both the top and the middle. You wouldn't accept that because the parents of the average kids are not as vocal, connected and organised. We can't make you listen.

Most of the world educates the bright scientists and the rest of kids without sets.

What you express above is a widely held conventional belief. I understand on personal level why you came to believe this. But it is absolutely unacceptable, I reject that with every gut, as long as I live.

The meaning of :
"Parents have a role to play if they can - and should be given early honest assessment of their child’s readiness for each level

For those who can go faster why not let them? The education system only has a limited amount of money and Most people would say it should teach the population as a whole the skills the country needs (not everyone needs everything - I don’t use trig). We have a lack of maths and science graduates. Schools must also ensure kids are at the right level for uni."

The meaning of this is "you should accept we discarded your [perfectly able] child, as we can do that if she is not in top set. Can't you understand, she is not worth the education and not worth the money. We need to focus on the most able"