Admissions experts - can this be right?

[FlumePlume]

So I received a letter saying ‘miniPlume will be considered for a Specialist Music Place if [Name of School] is listed as their first preference on the Common Application Form’. I thought it didn’t matter where you put the school on the form, and that they wouldn’t know?

If it makes any difference, this is a church school. But we prefer the local super selective grammar, and were going to put that first on the CAF. Of course, we won’t know if dd has scored highly enough to get a place at the grammar until 1 March.

If she doesn’t score highly enough for the grammar, will putting the church school second mean she can’t then get a specialist music place there, and would be looking at her third choice (or lower)? That doesn’t seem to be how the system is meant to work - I thought it was all about where you qualified for a place, and then you were assigned a place based on your order of preferences.

The heads around here continually said ‘you must put us first’ in their open day speeches, yet I knew the criteria disregard this. I never worked out why. I guess they COULD make it a criteria for specialist place, but it seems unfair.

Ok, slightly playing devils advocate here but if I were the Church school with a certain number of places allocated on a specialist basis , ie Music or Sport, we need to carry out some kind of "testing" to ensure the best candidates are allocated those places ie say 50 musicians apply for 10 reserved places. Therefore the school wants to be sure those they select are really serious about wanting to be part of that scheme at their school. Putting them first on the Common Application Form indicates that serious desire and intent to take the place. From what you are posting you only want the specialist music place if your child fails to get into the super selective grammar.

We were told at the yr6 parents' meeting at school that the schools wouldn't know which order you'd put them in.

I had a quick google and found a couple of schools offering specialist music places where you definately do not have to put the school first on the form.

I would clarify with the local authority as I’m almost certain this is against the admissions code.

No but the council will. The child will be considered by all the schools on their list. So you put SSG first, child doesn't get offered place. Church school considers child according to their criteria. School tells council they are prepared to make an offer to the child and tells council where on their list of offers your child comes. Other schools on your list also decide if to offer place or not. Then the Council allocate offers to schools. If your child has not been offered a place by SSG then it will be depend how many children who chose the Church school as FIRST preference have been given places at that school. You will only get an offer from the church school if there are places left after all the children who put the church school first and meet the church school criteria in it's various guises. That is where the OP could be caught out. As Church schools are usually oversubscribed all the places may go to those who put it as first choice. The SCHOOL does not need to know where you put them on the CAF, it is the council who use that information to allocate the places.

You will only get an offer from the church school if there are places left after all the children who put the church school first and meet the church school criteria in it's various guises

That is incorrect & unlawful.

All children are ranked from 1 to whatever for every school they apply to.

For simplicities sake say each school has 100 places with 10 reserved for music scholars.

OP’s child sits grammar exam & is ranked 120th.

Child also sits music assessment & ranks 9th

Because the OP’s child was not allocated a place at grammar they will be allocated a music place even if the 10th, 11th & 12th Children put the music school as first preference. They will instead be allocated their second preference school.

However if the OP’s child does get a place at the grammar school that’s when they will be taken off the list at music school & the place offered to those below them on the list.

LibraryLurker is completely wrong. It is illegal to give priority to people who name the school as first choice. Admissions are decided entirely by the school's admission criteria. It is absolutely not the case that people naming a school as first choice get places first. Neither the school nor the LA can behave like that.

prh47bridge So if I put the church school with the music place as second choice, dd will get the music place there if she doesn’t get a grammar place (depending on marks, of course, but she would have got in the last few years with the mark she got in the music aptitude test)? Despite what the letter says?

LibraryLurker Yes, we prefer the grammar as the music there is better, as well as the academics. But there are six spaces on the form, so we do need to think about second, third etc choices.

In effect the church school offering music places will be holding a mini admission criteria in their own right in that all those that apply for a school place (at whatever priority) and have completed the music aptitude test will be put in priority order. The school will not know (or certainly should not know) what preference they are. If there are 10 places on offer, the top 10 will be offered on the basis of the music aptitude test. Everybody else who carries out the music aptitude test but is not offered a place under that criteria will then be put in the main priority order for the school and places offered from that list.
If somebody offered a music place rejects the place, then the 11th pupil on the music list will then the offered the place unless they have already been allocated a place in which case the 12th will be offered etc.
That is how it is supposed to work. However the letter just does worry me a bit. It might be some bright spark in the office just trying to make things easy for themselves so that the top 10 in musical aptitude do put down the school as first preference. However I think it would be in your interest to ask in writing of both the school and the LA that the comment in the letter is not correct and that the school does not know what preference you have put them down for. At the least you are making the school aware that you know the rules, at the other extreme you are making sure that they will abide by the rules, if somehow they are becoming aware of the preference list. You need to get the reply in writing so that there is no way of things changing.

admission Thanks! So I think you’re suggesting that I need to e-mail the school admissions officer, cc the council (my council or the one that the school is in?) seeking clarification that they will assign places according to the admissions criteria ie the rank order of scores on the musical aptitude test, and without any reference to preferences as shown on the CAF.

And that, therefore, I do need not to rank the school first in order to have a chance of getting musical aptitude place, given the first choice would be a highly competitive grammar for which I will not know dd’s score at the time of application.

Are those the right questions to ask, in terms of the admissions code?

Those are the right questions to ask. Regarding who to email, I would CC both councils. It shouldn't be necessary but, given what the school's letter says, it is better to be safe.

LibraryLurker you have misunderstood the process. Please do not spread this misinformation to anyone you talk to in RL. It is one of the myths that persists, and deters people from listing schools in their true order of preference.

I was taught to admit when you are wrong, and on this occasion I have confused some issues and I apologise for misleading anyone. May I just ask one question then I will retire with grace. Forget GS and specialisms. If a child applies for 3 schools and both the first and second choice schools are willing to offer a place, based on their relevant criteria,. would the council offer me the first choice school on my list? Otherwise I can see no point of putting choices in order.

LibraryLurker .
Yes: that is the point in the process when order does matter. If more than one school tells the LA that they can admit you, the LA will automatically allocate you the school highest up your list.

Every school you apply to ranks every applicant in one list according to how they meet the admissions criteria. People who put them first, people who put them last, all in one list. Then they tell the LA who ‘gets in’, and presumably if an applicant has been offered a higher preference elsewhere, their place goes to the next one down the list. The computer keeps whirring until all allocations have been made.

It can mean that someone who put the school third gets a place because they live closer than someone who put them first by lives further away.

But it stops people having to gamble or feeling they must put a less preferred school first because if they don’t they will be left high and dry.

It means that people can apply in their genuine order of preference, including a ‘long shot ‘ in first place and not be disadvantaged.

But schools do frequently misrepresent the system.

Schools do know where you ranked them but it doesn't make a difference to getting the place.

However if you're hoping to jump the queue by applying for a specialist place that trumps the usual criteria, it may be possible for them to add the condition that you must put them first.

What they don't want to do is make you an offer which you decline because you're also offered your first choice

Schools do know where you ranked them but it doesn't make a difference to getting the place.

No they don't. Applications go to the lea. The lea then processes them, or if the school is its own admission authority the lea sends them a list of everyone who has put them down. It does not additionally send them a further list with preferences.

It is illegal to have a criteria, including those for specialisms, that is treated differently to all the other criteria - in other words the usual criteria are NEVER trumped (except in the case of an ehrc, which shouldn't need to go through the usual admissions process anyway).

Schools do know where you ranked them but it doesn't make a difference to getting the place

I'm doing a secondary admission this year and everything I've read on MN in the past has said that the school don't know the ranking.

I'm still not totally clear on this and whether it matters if they know as long as the proper admission proecedures are followed i.e. they know but it makes no difference to the outcome

Titchy, I promise you I've seen our list for each of the last three years and the rankings are on it.

Schools can't add criteria about putting them as first choice because to do so contravenes the Admissions Code, and the Admissions Code is binding on all Admissions Authorities. Every single child must be admitted impartially and in complete accordance with the Code. The process is literally a paper exercise of ranking applications in order for each school. Then, where more than one school can take a pupil, that pupil gets given their highest preference, and their name gets taken off the list for the other 5 schools. This results in a movement in the lists. The process is repeated. Over and over. Until all pupils have a place, or all places are taken.

Bestseller are you an Admissions Authority?

It is irrelevant whether schools know or do not know where a particular applicant has put them on the list because they are not allowed, by law, to use that as part of the selection or ranking process.

They can ONLY use the published admissions criteria.which cannot include ‘applicants who put us as first preference’.

No Logie, I work in a school. We get the list from the LA so we know who to expect and can manage our waiting list (our LA charges schools to do it so some do it themselves).

The list definitely includes the rankings. We're an oversubscribed school and the head is offended when people haven't put us first, although it's long forgotten before the children start

So you don't get the list when making first round offers then - because the council makes the offers, just when offers have been made and you're managing your waiting list? I hope you offer from the waitlist ignoring the preferences....

We get a list in order of criteria which is then used to make the offers (we do that ourselves too) and manage the waiting list. The priorities are on it but not used in either process.