Girls' school can discriminate against boys, but not against girls - who knew?

[cluelessandflueless]

Is it just me that find this ironic? A girls' school is able to admit girls-only, but when it tries to prioritise a few places for boys in its sixth form it gets hauled over the coals for discriminating against girls (among other things): www.gov.uk/government/publications/waldegrave-school

I found that very interesting (I live not far from the school). I don't really see why they should admit boys at all personally. It's a girls' school. There are plenty of coed sixth forms available locally.

I find it surprising that they thought they could get away with this. From Y7 to Y11 they are a single sex school so can reject applications from boys. However, Y12 and Y13 are coed so they must treat all applicants equally regardless of sex.

If the school treats the external girls less favourably than external boys when they apply for the 6th form , which was clearly found in the judgement, they are acting unlawfully. Simples! They didn’t consult properly either.

Yes, the consultation, or lack of it, sounds pretty shocking! I also found it interesting, given how popular and oversubscribed the school is, that nobody seems to be able to adequately pinpoint the actual catchment areas.

I find it interesting that the complaint was about the 2019 policy but the adjudicator says they don't have to change it until they publish the 2020 policy. Surely that leaves their 2019 sixth form admissions wide open to appeal from girls who should have got places ahead of boys?

Yes, it does. However, it is too late to change the admission arrangements for 2019. Applications are already under way. You can't change the arrangements after people have started applying.

I think it's a shame they can't allocate a set amount of places - it's reassuring to boys to know they're going to be in a large minority rather than a small one.

Tiffin School's announcement that they are going to be admit girls to the sixth form confidently states that they are expecting 50% of the external places to be filled by girls, but if you read the small print their policy doesn't discriminate like Waldegrave's, so they can't guarantee that's what they'll get and girls who apply might find they're in a smaller minority than was billed in the advert: www.tiffinschool.co.uk/sixthform/admissions.html

I think it's a shame that there isn't a girls' sixth form in Richmond as a state option, given that there is clearly an appetite for a girls' school below this level. I don't understand what the benefit to the girls is of admitting boys. If there isn't a benefit, what is the point? There are lots and lots of coed sixth forms already and girls at Waldegrave who want to be in a coed environment have plenty of other choices.

I also don't quite understand why Tiffin wants girls in their sixth form. Any parent or child who prefers a coed environment has much more choice than anyone who wants a single sex environment in the state sector and can achieve this easily by choosing an actual coed school.

And why do the boys need reassurance? If you choose to attend a school largely composed of the other sex, you need to be confident in your choice, clear about why you want to attend and able to deal with the consequences. If you need to be reassured, it is probably the wrong school for you.

None of this directly affects me but I would not be happy with it if I'd sent my daughter to Waldegrave in the expectation of a single sex education, tbh.

There's an oversupply of 6th forms places locally and it's not financially viable to run them at a low capacity. Waldegrave and Tiffin are trying to ensure that they fill with the brightest in order to keep results/reputation up, they are doing this by expanding selection rather than resorting to lowering entry criteria (as other schools have done)

I can see from Waledgrave's perspective they want boys in their sixth form, but how they thought it wasn't descriminatory to choose external candidates based on their sex I don't know. It clearly is. 2 candidates applying for a space in a co-ed sixth form have equal opportunity/right to that space.

None of this directly affects me but I would not be happy with it if I'd sent my daughter to Waldegrave in the expectation of a single sex education, tbh.

Entry to the sixth form is not guaranteed. You have to apply and meet the entry criteria.

Yes, of course. All sixth forms need to take the students that are best suited to the courses they offer. I think it's a shame that there is no single sex education available at sixth form level in the borough.

I did not know that there was a local issue with an over-supply of sixth form places. In that case, why do all schools now have sixth forms? Wouldn't it be better to have fewer sixth forms concentrated in fewer locations so children can take the options they need?

Donkey's years ago schools had sixth forms but they weren't great and had a very restricted set of subjects they could offer. The LA decided to close all the 6th forms and open a 6th form college so expertise could be concentrated in one place, student services could be tailored and different courses could be offered. Nearly all students staying on post 16 went there. It was the jewel in the crown in Richmond and had a good reputation.
But it got too big for its boots, it overexpanded, took too many out of borough students, it didn't feel like a local resource anymore, teaching standards were sacrificed and finances were mismanaged. Results dropped. Funding of 16-18 education was drastically cut and it couldn't cope. Behaviour, results, and reputation fell. Students started to head to Esher and the opposing party at the time campaigned for the return of 6th forms. When the Tories took control of the council they made all schools open 6th forms (at a really difficult time when Twickenham and Hampton were going through tough times, funding was decimated and schools were stretched having to cope with bulge classes).
The schools offer a standard a-level route with a limited range of subjects. The 6th form college is shrinking and is finally getting some much-needed investment but it will take time for it's reputation to change. But 6th forms need a lot of students to make them viable and confidence in the school's offerings is slow to build. There are not enough students to fill all the places. Twickenham and Hampton have already closed there's (on the back of other issues as well). So there is a rush for the brightest students, and that is what is driving Waldegrave and Tiffin to become co-ed at 16.
Glaciferous - I think you are right in that schools will have to work together to make the 6th forms viable going forward but I see no sign of this so far.

Personally I am not that opposed to co ed sixth forms. It prepares you for what comes later, either at work or university or life in general. Co ed is probably a better environment in the long term for 16 year olds. And there must be a good reason why even the top private schools in the country like Westminster and King's College in Wimbledon convert to co ed for sixth form - anybody knows why? (Although I don't have any examples of girls top schools with co-ed sixth forms....)

To stop the boys leaving
To boost their results further by selecting top performing girls

Schools like Westminster and Kings bring girls in for one reason only and that is to boost their results and boost numbers on courses not popular with boys. It is well known that for certain STEM subjects the very best and brightest girls from schools like SPGS do not get places but less able girls will be able to get on less popular subjects like modern languages and classics. Though Westminster obviously bring in the even brighter students from overseas as boarders who may well gravitate to STEM subjects. Kings is still a boy's school that accepts girls, one Master told girls in all seriousness that they had put chairs in the girls' toilets especially, to meet their particular needs being wilting violets

The girls' private and faith schools often lose a significant number of pupils to co ed (Oratory also takes girls into the sixth form) at 16, up to a third and rarely attract more than a handful in. I am sure that Waldegrave do not want to take that risk in a competitive market. I would doubt they could sustain a girls' only sixth form.....

@Emilyontmoor what you re saying makes a lot of sense. There is a girl I know currently at Westminster sixth form and guess what, her focus is modern languages.... separately I do not understand why the boys schools would mix for sixth form but there aren't many examples of the reverse in private?

Girls are a good influence on boys. Boys in a girls’ school are not a good influence. That has been conventional thinking and that’s why Private girls’ schools don’t have boys. They simply don’t need them.

You don’t need to replicate boy meets girl at school. Being at school is part of life. It’s not the whole life of a teenager. They meet boys. They have brothers and meet their friends. They don’t exist in a female only environment, except for lessons at school. It’s not necessary to have boys in a 6th form and many parents at girls’ schools don’t want change. If they do, they move to coed.

Teens of that age can make their own choices. Why should the parents care if there are boys there

I agree with mixed sixth forms and schools as a whole tbh.

Girls do better in single sex schools. That is it in a nutshell. There is plenty of research confirming this.

many parents at girls’ schools don’t want change. I think they have a wider problem with change if they are dictating the choices of their 16 year olds who are in all probability only two years away from leaving home and need to develop life skills including decision making!

Girls do better in single sex schools. That is it in a nutshell. There is plenty of research confirming this. Does this research allow for different personalities and levels of motivation and how they thrive in the different cultures that exist in girls' and coed schools. I know of girls who did better in an all girl environment especially where they studied STEM subjects but I also know of plenty of instances where girls have struggled with the cliquey exclusive norms that can thrive in an all girl environment. Boys tend to be intolerant / oblivious to that sort of manipulative behaviour and not let exclusive norms establish themselves so easily. I know of classes at just about every girls' school in the borough including Waldegrave where that sort of behaviour has resulted in significant numbers of girls leaving.

separately I do not understand why the boys schools would mix for sixth form but there aren't many examples of the reverse in private? Being girls' schools is part of their USP and it is also almost always hard wired into their aims and ethos going back to their establishment, many having been established to offer education to girls when it wasn't the norm, in the case of LEH that was in the 17th century but mostly it was the start of the 20th. I know of a private girls' school who when faced with the prospect of closing because of declining numbers actually chose the route of becoming a Free School so it could preserve its girls' only ethos rather than go co ed / merge with a boy's school (though there are examples of that too)