Mixed ability or streamed for an able child?

[hippospot]

Need to choose between two secondary schools soon.

Both Ofsted outstanding, both mixed, both will get some intake from DD's primary.

School A is closer (15 min walk), newer (no results yet though that doesn't worry me), smaller, fewer facilities, fab head. Mixed ability for all subjects except maths.

School B is further (30 min walk), bigger, well established, excellent facilities, fab head. Streamed for most subjects.

DD is very academically able, was pretty bored in year 5 as found lessons easy and pace too slow.

I prefer School B as I think being in top stream will stretch her more and I do worry that in mixed ability class there might be more disruption.

I was picked on at school for being "studious" at a mixed ability school. It was not cool to be clever. I also found learning to be frustratingly slow-paced and got fed up of disruptive children slowing things down even more by needing to be told off constantly.

Should I even be worried about this?

Academically I think she'll do well in either school because she is conscientious and motivated, but I want her to be able to find her "tribe" and not be at all ostracised for being bright.

B

Mixed ability would be fine if the teacher differentiated rather than taught to the middle of the class.

I think setting is a good thing. But visit them, ask questions about it and see which one you prefer.

Easy. School B.

Questions to ask at open days:

How many GCSE offered? (8 is probably the main for school A, school B should be offering up to 11, with 9/10 min).

How many taking GCSE Triple Science? (this is x3 GCSEs in each of Physics, Chem and Bio - tends to be the brighter kids, excluding arty types. Double Science is x2 GCSEs spread over the 3 subjects - lower achieving schools tend to push this).

How many take Further Maths/Additional Maths as well as Maths GCSE and A level?

How many modern foreign languages offered in lower years and taken for GCSE and A level?

If your DD is artistic - how many took art, DT, drama, dance GCSE last year?

Sports - are there teams? Are there fixtures against like-minded schools?

% of students that progress from year 11 to year 12.

Leavers' destinations. (Russell Unis? Any Oxbridge - sch B?).
.
Teacher turnover. How many left last summer/joined this Sept?

How many cover supervisors does the school use to cover lessons if no teacher? (Cover supervisors are not teachers.)

School hours. If School A has a shorter day - why?

30 mins walk twice a day will be easy. Plus good exercise if she is not sporty.

Good luck.

QuantumGroan
I agree, whilst also being aware that differentiation doesn't mean doing that irritating thing of fussing over the top students and saying 'ooh you lot are so much better so you can have a special task'.
Sometimes I find able students get irritated if they think they are doing the 'same' work as their peers (Often because they've had it instilled that they should have special clever child work) when the reality is that the teacher is pitching the lesson to the top level and differentiating like mad to support all students to make progress towards that top level and students will achieve at different levels.
Teach to the top and support underneath is the best way to teach mixed ability well.
Sadly even if the able students haven't mastered the challenging task fully, some still complain and we get phone calls saying "my Timmy was on top table at primary and now he tells me he is doing the same work as less intelligent students. This is so demotivating. You aren't challenging him enough etc." Then I point out that the whole class is working on GCSE criteria and doing difficult work with differing levels of support and scaffolding but actually Timmy hasn't mastered It, whilst others have (and they have extension work). Actually Timmy needs to spend more time developing as a learner and less time trying to be seen to be smarter than his peers and when Timmy is easily hitting the extension tasks then he will get a higher level of challenge but really he isn't quite there yet.

Sometimes I think discussions around mixed ability, setting and streaming can become simplistic on MN.

I don't know how they do it generally Maisy - I just know that at my dd's school they cream off the very top set and then I don't know what happens to the sets below - the teacher boasted to me that they didn't spend much time on the hard questions , stuck with the nice easy stuff so it was a lovely class for dd to be in and when I said that explained why dd thought she was doing really well at maths and found everything really easy until she sat an exam and it wasn't really benefiting dd much - she started back peddling and denying her previous comments. DD is targeted a level 7, (she is not a high flyer and I have never ever complained about her not being stretched, 30 kids last year got a 9 in their Maths - so I know my place) she is capable of achieving her target but not with her current maths teacher.

Setting for maths is almost universally considered to be the best option for most students due to the nature of the subject. Highly able students will often need entirely new topics due to speed of coverage/mastery and the subject builds more.

Something like English or geography is fine mixed ability. You can teach Romeo and Juliet (for example) and set an essay on love and the balcony scene and get essays anywhere from basic inferences through to university level critical theory and everything in between. The challenge there (once you've got the sensible approach of pitch to the top and support beneath) is ensuring that any students who've got this fixed mentality of 'I must be seen to be top and doing special takes because I was on the yellow unicorn hedgehog table last year and my teacher told my mum I'm top of the class eleventy years ahead' to realise that yes it is the same extract and the same task, but they will access it at different levels and achieve at different levels.
The trick, in my opinion, is that support should be subtle. Day to day differentiation in mixed ability shouldn't be 'purple group you can do this task, and blue group cam have this worksheet and green group you can do the task and I'm going to spend 30 minutes doing another task with the weakest children'.

Mixed ability isn't always the evil people on mumsnet make it out to be. It can be done wrong, but then equally so can setting. I'd sooner pick a school where I had confidence in the quality of teaching over how they group students (though my personal preference is loosely streamed).

The trouble is that too many schools/teachers don't believe in pitch to the top and support underneath. Or if they do, they don't have teachers with enough experience or ability or support to do it. DD2s mixed ability English classes were appalling, partly because of that. Unfortunately, it's very difficult for a parent to get that level of detail about how classes are conducted, and anyway they are likely to vary depending on what teacher your child ends up with. That's why the 'safer' option, in my view, is to opt for the school that sets.

Another problem with mixed ability is that for GCSE optional subjects like French, there is pressure to lower standards in order to keep the numbers choosing that option up, i.e. not develop a reputation for being a subject that makes pupils work hard or isn't 'fun'. Setting can provide some protection against that for the more able students who are keen to learn.

Our secondary has maths sets, and that's it, everything else is mixed ability. I have two children there, one is G&T in maths and very good at every subject, the other one is G&T in English and good in every subject.

I have to admit that it worried me at the beginning that the English wasn't set, but looking at the challenges that are in front of him, DS who is G&T in English is doing very well, he is progressing without being pressurised. He has made himself a group of mates who like English and reading and they are egging each other on, they work together and challenge each other. Their English teachers have so far been very supportive.

For Maths, DS2 who is G&T in maths is well acknowledged, recognised and already significantly challenged (the teacher has already set him some GCSE challenges to work on) and he has only just started year 7. The teacher is right on it.

So what I'm saying is that streaming is not a breaking point for us, both DSs still manage to progress steadily and be challenged and interested with their favourite subjects, without feeling too much pressure or stress. It's the quality of the teaching that makes all the difference, but that's very difficult to judge when looking for a school.

It would be a no brainer for me - B