best free secondary schools in london or north london

[bumbleandbumble]

I am desperate to figure out where to send my two daughters, currently in year 4 and 5. The state schools near us really are not good and I did not like what I saw and heard from local parents.

I am desperate for private school, but with three kids and average incomes there is no chance. They are both bright, in top reading/math groups, and always get good reports, but by no means super genuis/gifted types.

The only thing I can think of is that we can move close to a good school if that helps as we are only renting. We are also C of E and go to church...but still the competition seems incredible and all everyone says to me is "good luck getting in there"

What do normal Londoners do? What can I do? What is the solution if you dont like your local choice?

Umm, i’m Not looking at it really for DD cos i’m not prepared to move but lots of parents in our bit of north London are very taken with Alexandra Park School and some are moving even though, in my opinion, there are decent state options nearer. DD seems to favour an all-girls school so we are looking at Hornsey girls or possibly Parliament Hill (think we are a little far) but I would be happy enough if she changed her mind and went to Highgate Wood.

Her father’s view, and I agree, is that a reasonably bright and motivated child with parental support will do ok anywhere, so my message is try not to worry too much and have faith in your girls, I have seen so much angst from parents and i’m not sure it is always worth it. Some schools might show slightly better results but most London schools will have a fairly generous percentage (40-50%) getting reasonable GCSEs, DD is def in the top 40%, maybe in the top 10% in some areas, so we are happy to support her and be relaxed that she will achieve well wherever she goes.

Sorry, you haven’t said which particular area you are in so you might have really good reasons to be worried about your state options, in which case maybe you could look at some of the schools I’ve mentioned. Good luck!!!

You need tI tell us which your local schools are.

There are lots of good local schools in north London, and the vast majority of parents, including professional families, send their children to those schools. So it also depends a bit on what your idea of a ‘good school’ is. If you mean one with no problem children or behavioural issues, then you’re going to struggle tbh, whether in the state or private sectors.

Hornsey. Crouch End. Sorry but I have not liked at all what I have seen at Hornsey school for girls... the behaviour of the girls is appalling. Anyway I am more than happy to move anywhere in London where girls can do really well. Parents in my current school are all tutoring and going private... but I cannot afford that. Anything in camden good? Marylebone C of E? Alexandra Palace maybe have not heard much except it’s a very small encatchment... is Highgate wood ok? Only ever heard of the Highgate private... Can you get help with private schools? Is that a realistic idea? Has anyone ever got a nursery?

Is that you, OP? Take it you have name changed. Sorry to hear you didn’t like Hornsey, always think gangs of teens can seem a bit unruly en masse but we got a nice vibe going round.

Highgate Wood is much bigger and to me seemed a little institutional but plenty of kids do well both there and at Hornsey. Most schools are doing open days/evenings at the mo for the year 6s and their parents but you can go and check them out.

Even if you think a school catchment is ‘tiny’, and I don’t think APS is that small, you do have flexibility to move into it you said.

Marylebone c of e is meant to be very good and I know of someone who moved right next to the school to get a place. But this is obviously not possible for most people as it's an expensive area.

Lots of people like Camden School for Girls. Although admissions distances aren’t as stupidly small as they were before Camden cracked down on admissions fraud they are still tiny and properties in the zone aren’t cheap.

What’s you’re local school, the one your children would get into if you didn’t move? If you put a post up about that you would probably get MN who could reassure you, or not.

OP, do you think you are maybe letting all the people going private frighten you a little bit? I don't live in London but looked at the results for Hornsey and they are excellent, particularly for High Attainers - a Progress 8 score for High Attainers of 0.68 is exceptionally good. I don't think you would have to worry too much about your daughters not reaching their potential there.

Sorry, I was confused by your name change. I see you live in Crouch End. I can understand your worry- not because you need to worry, but the area you live in can be a bit of a stressful educational pressure cooker.

Some of the state primary’s in Crouch End can seem a bit like private prep schools-not because of a difference in the quality of the education they provide, but because of the type of parent they attract. That’s the people you’re getting g your information from. You don’t have to be like them, the rest of the UK isnt.

Normal Londoners do send their children to the nearest state school. (None of the schools mentioned would fill me with dread.)Other Londoners tutor, move house, go to the right church for the correct number of services. Others pay for tutors and private schools. There is no right way. Well there is, obviously, and that’s my way, but all this is just my opinion.

I have found the schools reactions to my contacting them about their pupils bad behavior is a good indication of if I’d send my DCs there.

Have you heard of this organisation? I think they have extended their reach from Camden to your area.

meettheparents.info

All schools have children who behave badly, and comprehensive schools will have kids from the full range of ability and social background.

Hornsey is a well-regarded school that achieves excellent outcomes for its higher-attainers, while also supporting children who don’t find the academic side easy. Of course there are children who behave badly, but there’s no reason to assume your dc will not reach their potential there.

Any good comprehensive will have a similar mix. Teenagers from private schools may look more polished, but there will also be behavioural problems there, they just tend to take different forms and involve more expensive drugs.

Tbh all teenagers are a bit scary-looking when you’re the parent of a 9yo. You need to chill out and look properly at all the available schools to try and work out what you do and don’t want. Otherwise you risk making a wrong choice from a vague perception that school A is somehow ‘nicer’ than school B.

I’ve encountered quite a few parents who are actively miffed that some of their children’s peers have got better results from ‘rough’ comprehensives than their dc did from private or state selective schools.

As long as a school has a reasonable cohort of high achievers who are getting good outcomes, then there’s no reason to assume your child can’t do the same.

The presence of gaggles of teenagers who fancy themselves as ‘rude kids’ smoking and being loud in the street really doesn’t tell you anything very useful about the quality of education your child is likely to receive.

AgonyBeetle

That's a very good post. I do worry sometimes about parents who assume that a private or a grammar school is some kind of guarantee that their child will never be bullied or encounter difficult people. Assuming that your child will never have problems at a particular school is a pretty dangerous.

DD does a sport (rowing) mainly done by private school kids and one kid in her club (who went to a prestigious private school) displayed some pretty nasty bullying behaviour to one of his fellow rowers. I doubt whether he's all that different at school. Almost all the kids in her club are nice, whether they go state or private.

If you're CofE then definitely have St. Marylebone in the mix. Girls come from all over London and it's a great school. Do you attend regularly (i.e at least once a fortnight)? If you do then you will have a good chance of a church place.

it’s not just the bad behaviour... it’s just the lack of attention,with large classes of 30, not pushing to do better... i see this already in our state primary. My girls are well behaved so when i go to the teacher meetings for their report, all I get is ‘they are doing fine.”
In secondary school is where they need to be challenged and where i worry more about their pier group. I really worry about them being lost in the shuffle and all the bad behaviour.

it’s not just the bad behaviour... it’s just the lack of attention,with large classes of 30, not pushing to do better... i see this already in our state primary. My girls are well behaved so when i go to the teacher meetings for their report, all I get is ‘they are doing fine.”
In secondary school is where they need to be challenged and where i worry more about their pier group. I really worry about them being lost in the shuffle and all the bad behaviour.

You're conflating several issues here, and as I said upthread, you need to tease out these issues and work out what you really want, otherwise you risk making a wrong decision.

Class sizes is a red herring, since classes are often larger in state selective schools (St Michael's in Finchley has 32 in a form, for eg), while many comprehensives will try and keep tutor groups to mid-20s because they have a more mixed intake and get greater benefit from reducing group sizes.

If the current school is not differentiating appropriately or providing appropriate challenge, then that is an issue you need to take up with them. You'd be wrong to assume that all schools with a mixed intake cannot challenge high achievers properly - many schools with tough intakes are very aware of having ambitious targets for their high attainers, while some schools with more privileged intakes can be quite complacent about it.

The top GCSE achiever at Hornsey Girls this year got 7 grade 9s plus an A*, which is a good outcome for any school. If others can do this, there's no reason to assume your dc can't.

But if what you are after is a vague sense that small class sizes and privileged intake are somehow 'better', then there are plenty of private schools that will happily take very large quantities of your money to make you feel good about yourself with a veneer of privilege and individual attention, while delivering exam outcomes that are less good than many local comprehensives - see the thread on Mill Hill school for a case in point.

it’s just the lack of attention,with large classes of 30, not pushing to do better...

Sorry, but this is not credible for a school that is achieving such high scores for its top students (by, the way, the attainment 8 score for High Achievers is exactly the same (66.9) at Hornsey and Marylebone). Hornsey does not appear to have a specially privileged intake which means it probably is a well-run school. Think this through - how are the bright girls there doing so well if they are not being pushed and distracted by bad behaviour?

I agree that test scores are not the only measure of a school and there may well be other schools that seem a "better fit" for your child. That's fine. But please look at the evidence first - check out the results of your nearest schools, dig out the statistics from the D of E website, read the Ofsted reports, visit the schools with an open mind.

Sorry, please insert the word "are " before "distracted"

Henrietta Barnett, a super selective girls grammar in Hampstead is a great school with great results. I know many people who have gone there including two who recently left for top unis. It is tough to get in though so you would have to do a lot of preparation before hand imho.

Hi I hope its OK I contact you, just reading through munsnet regarding secondary school my daughter is in year 5 and I'm just where you were in 2018, May I ask what decision you made at the end. I'm getting really nervous looking at schools and rental every spare minute...
Thanks have a great weekend,
Rachel

Have a look at SMM (they have church places, is co-ed though) and Highbury Fields School. HFS seems to, over a pretty long period now, be doing many things right and its catchment area is, presumably as a result, getting smaller.

Wren Academy (Finchley)
Dame Alice Owen
Fortismere
Alexandra Park School
Mill Hill County High School

Latymer covers most of North London too.

Our old babysitter was at Highgate Wood- she loved it and is now at Bristol.

@Stokey yes but it doesn't accept anyone who hasn't passed the 11+ and competition is so fierce, there is no way to guarantee that the PP's kids will pass. Latymer, although a great school, is not a safe bet

Latymer, Dame Alice Owen, QEBoys and HenriettaB are grammar schools. You will certainly need a fall back option given these schools are quite selective, if you are dead sure your local comprehensive is bad, you should move.

However, this may ease your mind or confuse things. The progress 8 score measures progress, but has some quirks to it. For example it removes certain outliers who may disproportionately affect the score (I forget exactly the methodology). In addition, it measures from the level achieved at the end of primary school to GCSE. In most areas this is a good metric, however in London/North London, this can create situations where heavily tutored primary school children end up dragging the school score down. This is because they have learned ahead of their level and eventually it averages out when the non tutored children are actually taught the material.

Additionally schools play games and sit children into different subjects with different difficulties.

I.e. the official metrics are very abstract bits of data.

Additionally, I think it's research from the Sutton group which found that parents in London disproportionally push their kids to do well, and that living in London increases your life chances dramatically, typically because your child can avoid rent for a bit when they come to look for a job.

Apologies this post is rushed, but mini summary:

1. comprehensives near grammar schools look worse on paper than they actually are.
2. Even bad North London schools are actually pretty good when you compare to schools elsewhere in the country.
3. Kids in the capital have a huge leg up because they are surrounded by like minded hungry families and typically live in a London home.

And yes, my kids are in the state system, and for even more transparency I'm not even a left wing/big state believer. I really do think the state schools are pretty good.

@Bubbletea50 Dame Alice Owen accept a small number of pupils on distance, although I think you have to live right next to the school

True @XelaM. DD1 will probably just miss a place this year, so lucky we have a good state option.

Interesting stats @Bubbletea50, I do think most of the schools round me (east London) seem pretty decent. Think there's a massive gap between the reality and the portrayal in the media of gang-fuelled schools with stabbings on every corner.