Son just been offered place at grammar

[gramadilema]

I know this is maybe a bit of a luxury problem but we are on the horns of a dilemma and I’d love some mumsnet input .
DS started comprehensive (2nd choice) this week. Got a call today from grammar where he was on waiting list. Great, but he’s enjoying the comprehensive after 3 days there. He’s enjoyed his lessons and is feeling positive. He also feels he’ll get into top sets and will be challenged. The grammar will mean a one hour journey and that is the main drawback. The comp is 20 minutes away. We have no car and if trains aren’t running to schedule we’ll be stuck.
Arguments in favour of grammar are a proven track record, popular head, good attainment at A level ( average score B+ to comp’s C).
would it be silly not to take up the grammar? I have to get back to them tomorrow.

he doesn’t have to stay on a sinking ship

Errm… how does anyone know the school will sink? The new Head may be wonderful.

If your son is very reluctant to move I think he will need a better justification than "the new Head may not be very good."

Would you be prepared to say which schools so that any MNer with experience of them can comment?

I would like him to choose grammar, but he does have a mind of his own and some autonomy at this stage.

It's a big, life-changing decision to have on his shoulders. What other decisions does he make?

This is a really tough one. I'd make it clear that you would like him to go to the grammar but to sleep on it and it's his decision.

And no "I told you so" down the line. It's awful timing but I suppose nicer to have the option than never to have got in at all.

Not sure. DD got into London grammar on waiting list in July before term started a year ago. Academically she did fine there and was pretty close to top of year in some subjects and above average overall. But she hated it so I have just moved her to a comprehensive with an outstanding rating. Its only been day 1 but she was so unhappy at the grammar asked me to change everyday, too much pressure and not much pastoral care.

On the other hand you could try grammar and change back if he's unhappy though would be inclined to stay put. How does he deal with not being top, DD struggled with being average and there was teasing going on if you got lower marks. The out of school social life was pretty non-existent at the grammar as no-one else lived by us. The retention rate was good, the grades were amazing but they took the top 1%.

I'm with Lindy2 and FrayedHem - DS passed three super-selective 11+ exams but didn't really thrive at the one he's attended (although he is enjoying his sixth form experience there much more than earlier on in his grammar school career). It's really impacted on his confidence and the GCSE results he came out with were not what he/we would have expected. Had he been in the local excellent comp I think he would have thrived on being "one of the clever ones" and nurtured as such (as indeed some of his primary school cohort were) to achieve better results than he actually did. Some of the boys he's at school with are super, super-bright (winning international awards in their areas of particular academic interest). He is not in that league. It does rather skew one's perception of one's own abilities (and not necessarily in a good way!).

Leave him where he is, OP, would be my advice.

It's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned. Travel wise - I know of pupils travelling all the way from the south of London to the north of London just to attend an excellent super-selective grammar. I see them waiting at 6.30 pm on dark winter evenings waiting for public transport to get home - and these are girls I'm talking about!

First three days at the comp is absolutely nothing at all - nothing much is taught or learnt at the very beginning of an academic year. Frankly, I wouldn't put too much store on entering grammar after five years at a comp - the mould is kind of "set" by then.

Academic-wise, there's "security" in a super-selective grammar, never mind which set your child may be in. It's cool to be seen as studious and hard-working here - can't say the same in a comp. In fact, one may have to change just to be accepted by their peers at a comp and to fit in. Now, you pick your choice. . .

I would pick a nearby good comp over a long-journey Grammar.

There is no reason to assume that performance and teaching in top sets at a comp are a lesser education than at a Grammar.

What ‘mould’ Peteneras?
My comp-moulded Dc got a list of A*s and 9s at GCSE, 4 As at AS this summer, a string of academic prizes in external ‘subject’ competitions, and is being supported alongside several others at their S London comp in application to Cambridge.

I would try to remember the tpreasons why you put the Grammar as first choice in the first place. You had good reasons then....and they are still valid now. It is easy to be thrown by the fact you've bought the uniform, he has started elsewhere and is happy......but in the bigger context of a 7 year education, these are minor things.

I would also take the view that as he adult you decide. It's too big a responsibility to place on him to choose - he hasnt got the knowledge to make the choice or to fully understand the longer term implications. You need to be the adult and decide rather than leaving it to him and putting the burden of choice on him. Make the choice and gently tell him what it is. You might face a bit of resistance, fears etc.....but again, in the conte t of 7 years and the impact of education beyond that, really that possible resistance and few tricky days is nothing.

Just remember, if he moves, within 2 weeks, it will be as if he was never at the other place and the 'new' school won't be new.

So if the Grammar was the right place back when you applied and if you would have accepted. Waiting list place 4 months or 2 months ago, then take it now - don't let the fact he has started and might feel temporarily upset distort your judgement into going for the easier,mleast resistance option.

Of course, if you would have turned down a waiting list place 4 months ago and had totally decided against grammar, perhaps because of journey or other reasons, then remember those reasons too in making your choice.

Of course it's true that he could do well and thrive at the Comp. of course lots of posters on this thread have kids who thrice and do great at Comps - your choice isn't really about that - but the fact you thought the grammar was he best option for him when filling in the form. Unless something has changed significantly, if it was best then it's best for him now into the future. This isn't to denigrate the Comp or the Comp system or anyone else's choice to go to a Comp, or anyone else's schooling who doesn't have the choice - it's about your choice and what was and is best for him.

Frankly, I wouldn't put too much store on entering grammar after five years at a comp - the mould is kind of "set" by then.

Just reviewing the range of children from local excellent comp who have transferred to the most super-selective county grammar ... the mould set is of hard-working, very bight, well-educated and motivated 16 year olds. Why wouldn't it be? (I also find the significant flow of children with the highest grades from the less selective grammars into the comp, and the extremely comparable A-level grades between the comp and these grammars despite much lower selectivity, interesting)

It's cool to be seen as studious and hard-working here - can't say the same in a comp. How many of your children have been at a comp? My 2 comp educated children have just laughed (again) at this old chestnut.

In fact, one may have to change just to be accepted by their peers at a comp and to fit in. Depends on your peers...but again, in my DC's experience, they have had to become MORE studious and hard-working, rather than less, to fit in with their peers at their comp...

“It's cool to be seen as studious and hard-working here - can't say the same in a comp. In fact, one may have to change just to be accepted by their peers at a comp and to fit in. Now, you pick your choice. . .”

What rubbish. Real rubbish. As a generalisation. This may be true of not-good comps but it is not true of good comps.

In these days of hard times, clever kids are respected. And in top sets so alongside their academic peers anyway.

Is the comp oversubscribed? Would there be a chance that he could go to the grammar but if it all went wrong and he was unhappy, he would be likely to be able to get a place back at the comp?

My dd has just started an hour+ bus ride to get to a grammar. Leaves at 7.30am, gets home just after 5pm. It was a tough call between that and the local outstanding comp that is a 5 min walk away. And it is a true comp, as in a different county to the grammars so all abilities go to the comp, very very few high achievers get creamed off to go to the grammars.

She's loving it so far but we do have in the back of our minds that if she doesn't get on at the grammar, if we're prepared to wait, the comp is a huge school so enough pupil movement that she would eventually get a place there.

Chocolate, i agree up to a point. However - as can be seen on this thread, to an extent - there is a certain amount of 'perception bias' just in the fact that a comp is a comp, not a grammar school. A 'grammar is selective so it must be the best school' thing.

Now that the OP's child is IN the comp, and is familiar with it, then she is making a slightly different choice, because those 'external perceptions' - comp as second rate compared with grammar - have been challenged by the reality of the particular school.

So it MAY be that the OP's original preference for the grammar was strong and well-founded on reasons which remain absolutely valid - a wider selection of GCSEs, say.

However, it may have been based on perceptions which have now been dispelled by real experience - of an anti-academic bias or lower standards or 'undesirable peer group which would lead him to be set in the wrong mould by feeling he had to change to fit in with them'.

So I do think it would be valid for the OP to say 'well, I did originally want the grammar BUT my reasons for that preference have been overturned by my experience of the comp so we will stick with the comp'.

Thanks everyone for all these excellent points. And that’s the nub of the matter, there are strong arguments either way! DS is going to sleep on it. He’s asked me to do a breakdown of his journey to the grammar with times so he can decide better. He is really sensible and I trust him. Now if we had a crystal ball! Agree with Penguins, if grammar really doesn’t work out we could go back to comp cap in hand and ask to be put on their waiting list.

can'tkeepaaay - I think I would agree with you if this offer from the Grammar came,mperhaps a term of more into the year. However, we are 3 days in. I really don't think an 11 year old is in a place to make an accurate judgement about anything about the school he has briefly attended, nor are the parents - it is simply far too early to tell. Yes, behaviour might be great, he might get into the top sets, there might be a strong work ethic across the school.....or there might not. I really do t think either the boy or his parents will be able to accurately judge those things yet. That's why I say it's important to go back to the intitial reasons for the choice when applying. Presumably the parents put lots of thought into which school to choose. They chose the Grammar knowing about the journey and LL the other factors....and they still selected it. If they had been offered it originally, or even later from the waiting list, if they would have chosen it then, those reasons for the choice still stand and I think a rational rather than emotional response would be to go back to those reasons and to go with them.

Yes, he's liked the Comp and has emotionally got involved with the idea that it will be his school,mas have his parents - getting this surprising news is a wrench and telling him and then going through the move will be difficult for a period of days.....but I would say that these negatives are really very minor, if the Grammar was and is the best school. To miss out, because the easy option which was to stay put, was chosen because it was easier, just seems really short sighted.

And yes, the journey should be factored in. I'd have imagined people facto this in before actually applying - that they would see what the journey to the distant school would involve and do a practice run - so I'd imagine that had been done and although it had been Jules manageable.

Again, choosing to take the Grammar offer isn't to say the Comp isn't good or the children there don't do well or this boy couldn't do well there....and it's not a criticism of any other families, parents or children whose children go to Comps. It's simply a view that for this particular boy, this particular grammar, with whatever it offers academically,, socially, pastorally, in terms of extra curricular...the whole package will be more suited to him. If the grammar was deemed better for him, after careful thought back in Sept and Oct last year when applying, unless something has changed significantly, it probably is still the right choice for a 7 year education, rather than being swayed by a 3 day experience.

He is really sensible and I trust him

That’s a lovely thing to hear. I hope whichever school he chooses it works out well.

Chocolate,

I can see your points entirely.

I am just aware - teaching in a partially-selective area in upper KS2 - how 'non-rational' much school selection is (whether this is pro-grammar or pro-comprehensive - or pro - school A and anti - school B, though IME there is more fever around the grammar school issue).

I think the sensible approach would be to say - if you take away the 'one is a grammar and one is not' factor - put both the schools next to one another. You have, for a few hours, the luxury of genuine choice.

If both were comprehensives, or you didn't know the designation of the school, which would you choose? Which has better progress results for the group your child fits into? Which impressed you by its approach to parents at all times? Whose pupils have you admired, both inside and outside school? Which offers the best range of GCSEs? How much choice is there at the GCSE level? When you met the teachers at open evenings and on other occasions, were they interested in your child and did they engage him well? How positively, in terms of their child's whole experience, do current parents of children similar to your son speak about each school?

I agree. I would hope that in making their choice intitially, the parents had visited both schools and considered all the things you mentioned, including the journeys before making their choice....that they chose for their individual child based on academics, pastoral, social, extra curricular, values of the schools, choices at GCSE and A Level, stability of staff.....and more valid factors. If they chose based on sensible factors, then their decision should probably still stand and a 3 day experience however happy, just can't outweigh a sensible thought out choice which probably took weeks and months to make during the last academic year and before.

Of course, if that family did just put the Grammar without visiting or doing the journey...just becaue it was a Grammar, so sounded like it would be good, and didn't really think about this individual boy or what each individual school had to offer, that would be a shame.....and perhaps before reaching a decision or just letting his lad make a choice, without really having much info about his current school and possibly practiCally no info about the Grammar, they should invest some time pretty damn quick into gathering that info, so that now they can make an informed choice......because to choose the Comp now, without really knowing about the Grammar, apart from the fact it's further away, would be as daft as choosing the Grammar back in October last year without knowing anything about either.

I would bite their hand off.
It sounds like your son has an amazing opportunity to go to one of the best state schools in the country - take it.

Chocolate, we did visit the school at open day and he went there for the exams, we liked the head, the premises and a colleague of mine who is very level headed has a son there ( and two at a comprehensive) and likes the grammar school. We also know the comp well, sorry not intended to be a drip feed but DS1 is at the comp. He did not do the grammar tests and is less academic. He likes his school but is realistic about a few weaker areas. He actually said he thinks DS2 should go to grammar, but that could be because his embarrassing mum has been dropping DS1 off daily this week and ruining his cred!

Well, you clearly made an informed choice back when you put in your application. That's great and good news - it always strikes me as odd that people just put schools they haven't visited or have only chosen because of the type of school they are, without knowing more. You didn't sound like you'd done that.

And I guess having 2 at the same school would be easier. You clearly chose the Comp for DC1 as the right school for him. Great. You chose the Grammar as the fight school for DC2, and it's interesting that DC1 who knows more about the Comp than any of you, thinks the Grammar (which to be fair, he prob doesn't know much about) would suit him better. Perhaps it's worth bearing his thoughts in mind too or asking him. Bit more about why he thinks the Comp might not be so great for his brother.

In the end, you'll have to choose and I guess it will be important to make that choice in front of your DS2 in a way that makes it sound as if you are very sure, and then not look back and have lots of 'what ifs...' I would ask him his views, but I would also make the final choice as the adult and parent. Anyway, best of luck. Let us know what you decide....and I'm sure he will do well at either place, even if one might be a better fit.

How would you feel if in a few months he starts to see flaws in the comp, if you turn down the grammar it's unlikely you'll get another chance until sixth form.

I'm guessing he'd be able to get a place back at the comp next year if he didn't like the grammar? If he's a sibling?

Good luck with whatever you decide.

One hour journey each way a pain.
Your choice but a lot to be said for being local.

He got in with no tutoring! Go for the grammar 100%- lots that passed in the 'first round' will have been tutored.

I went to grammar. In the 80s. 70 minutes on the bus. But loved it and the level of education I received was far above that of those who didn't go.