Applying for Secondary School - what to ask/look for during visits?

[YogaDrone]

DS is moving into Yr6 and so it's almost time to apply for secondary schools.

I have been looking at their websites, looking at GCSE and A level results and am going to attend the open evenings they are having in the next few weeks.

Any tips on what to look for, and ask questions about, on these visits?

TIA

I looked mainly at how the pupils behaved. Did they seem to get along in a good social mix or were there cliques and huddles. What was the quality of the work on display? Was it varied or cookie-cutter? How thriving are the extra curricular subjects your DC might love. We were put off one school by a really dreary music dept as both DC love music. Another school massively impressed us because its science displays were fantastic - all run by the kids not teachers showing off by exploding a bloody jelly baby for the 50th time in a row.

Although there are some interesting questions on here, as with primary the starting point is "what is my chance of actually getting into this school?" We had precisely 3 choices that we had any chance of getting into

1. Catchment school (guaranteed place)
2. Undersubscribed school the wrong end of time (regardless of the school's issues, it would have been nigh on impossible for DC to get there independently and very difficult for parents to get them there due to logistics with jobs)
3. Close but not catchment school (about 1% chance of getting in -as it turned out, we wouldn't have in our application year)

... if those are your school likelihood the question of whether the school allows mobile phones in lessons and how they organise the lunch break and other similar questions are interesting but irrelevant.
(and also may have changed before your DC starts there!)

The main thing to consider is if you see your child thriving there.

We plumped for catchment school partly because the school's ethos was based round helping each child be the best they could. The ethos of next closest school seemed to be based round statistics and getting the school up the league tables.
... however both schools would have been absolutely fine.

wrt length of lunch.
ds and dds school do 4 lessons on morning and then one after lunch with a long lunch. This is because they do all after school clubs in lunchtime, because many kids are bused in, so can't do them after school.

One point to make. With all your questions, (and do ask ask ask as you go round), it is as much HOW they answer as they answer they give. Are they defensive or open? Honest or covering up?
You soon get a feel for it.

*@LandOr - do you know me?! Just wondering how you know our dds are at same school.

School policies should be available on website. How effectively they are implemented is the key thing.

Unless it's awful... go for the closest school that will only take a few minutes to walk to and from.

Your mini teenager might like the look of the school across town because it's got a big astro turf pitch or a large IT lab but when it comes to it, will they want to take a bus there or ride their bike 30 minutes in the freezing snow and rain to get there every day- probably not!

If they wanna meet up with friends they will all probably go to the school closest so might not be in his area - making it impossible for him to just pop to his mates which is only 5 mins down the road.

I don't know how close the schools you are considering are but I don't think you can really judge based on school reputation or a feeling you get from an open evening! I remember being in year 6, my choice of school was mocked in front of me and my mum by my best friends mum. My friend left year 11 with all C and D grades, I left with straight As and A*s... you can imagine how smug my mother was.

steppemum I don't know you exactly, but you were very helpful about 18 months ago when I contacted you with a few questions about uniform etc. We exchanged a few emails - my name begins with C and my daughter's with F.

Thanks, I wanted to ask about this too, as we have visits in the next few weeks.

Good point about exam choices, that's pretty important. I'm less bothered about streaming or not.

I'm interested in what the school does in terms of music and performance, as my daughter will be keen to do both and in music she would like to be doing classical music rather than all pop/musicals type stuff.

I want to check out discipline, as some of the schools have a reputation for being very strict and I think anything too draconian (ie detentions for forgetting things) would distress DD even if not being applied to her!

Keen to ask about pastoral care, as she is unconventional and sensitive, and one or two schools I am concerned might be great academically but less caring and responsive.

Will ask about the school day - the one we might be most likely to get into at the moment is a bit of a schlep to get to and seems to have a fairly early start (I went there to drop something off just before 8am and all the kids seemed to be arriving then) and I know it can vary quite a lot now.

If at all possible, see if a pupil who has been there for a few years will show you round - you get to know far more than the headlines

eg
School : "We do Duke of Edinburgh Award"
You: "Are you doing your DofE?"
Pupil: " No - there are only 30 places and 300 people apply

(Repeat for musical productions / sports Team / Ski trips or other residentials / anything else the brochure or HT mentions). If they don't do guides, ask the pupils in rooms.

One school we looked round, the Mum of one of dd's friends that we bumped in to, said to look at the name on the work that was out - nearly every subject was relying on one pupil to showcase good work

Another good idea is to look in the toilets when you are passing along a corridor (not the one near the front door they have open for visitors - the ones the dc will be using). You can tell a lot about a school by its toilets.

Don't get too hung up on if they are offering German or Spanish, or if this year they were allowed to take both Music and RE or whatever - the curriculum will change many times before your dc gets to public exams. Also staff will leave and 'Spanish' will no longer be available, etc.
However, I would ask about how dc are 'set' for different subjects.

Pants - I wrote a reply last night and it hasn't posted!

All points noted - thanks

I think the question about choice and the illusion of it is very important. Although we appear to have a choice of 6 schools (we have to put 4 on our application form) that's not really true. Realistically we only stand a good chance of getting into one - the local new academy. This was oversubscribed from it's second year of opening so seems to be highly regarded despite it's lack of exam results or Ofted report. This school is just over a mile away and DS could easily cycle as there are good cycle routes which were put in by the developers as part of the planning permission requirement.

There are two other schools we could possibly get - one is a single sex school which has a reputation as very sporty and competitive. As my son is an only child I'd rather he went to a mixed-sex school. This school is about 3 miles away but has been undersubscribed the past few years.

The other is a mixed-sex comp. which is also about 3 miles away and has a poor reputation which has led to it being undersubscribed for many years. However, they got a new head a couple of years ago and have been taken over by a well regarded MAT. They were also reviewed by Ofsted last year and got a solid "Good". This year's A level and GCSE results show a huge improvement too.

Logically I'll put all three of these as choices.

I'm rather paranoid about getting this application wrong. For primary school admissions we had one catchment school and four choices. I put our catchment school plus the other 3 closest schools on the application. We got none of them. In fact for a few weeks we didn't have a school at all. We were not the only ones - 10 catchment children didn't get the catchment school. This was unprecedented and simply down to the large cohort applying. Finally a school 5 miles away (which we hadn't even gone to look at as it was so far away) put on a bulge class and DS was given a place. He stayed there for 2 years until a group of parents (including DP) managed to get our local free school opened. This was a vast amount a work. The council, off the record, suggested that we would have the same issue come secondary application time (i.e. distance from catchment school). We moved 8 months ago deliberately to try to be closer to a secondary and improve our chance of a getting a place. I just hope we've done enough.

I've got a spreadsheet going now with all of your suggestions and tips, thanks again

Just read this thread again and the issues of finishing early caught my eye. Years ago I toured a comp which had a very early finish time, 2.15pm I think, despite starting at 9am. I asked the deputy head why they finished so early compared to all other schools I had toured in the area. She told me it was so they could fit in sport practice. Back in the primary playground one of the mums mentioned her older DC went to the comp, so I asked her the same question. She said it was so the school could fit in all the detentions (there were many) after lessons as the teachers were refusing to work after 4pm. I had no idea of contractural hours for teachers at that point but the comp went to the bottom of my list of possibles!

Think about how the teachers interact with you and your child. We went to some schools where the teachers were just stood in huddles talking to eachother showing no interest at all in parents/kids and leaving it all to their existing pupils to do the tours and answer questions etc

The school my son chose was completely different. The teachers were literally waiting to pounce as soon as they saw you. The person we later found out was head of maths just took my son and sat him down to play a maths board game. Other teachers had pupil's exercise books to show us what work they were doing. In tech, the teacher gave our son a small piece of wood to sand and then a brush of varnish to cover it. He was awestruck by how friendly the teachers were. 5 years later, and that has been the constant throughout the school - he says the teachers are all friendly and approachable - that's made a massive difference for him whenever he's had problems, whether with work or other pupils - all problems solved straight away and that's down to teacher attitude.

I would try to talk to some older students from each school. Ask your neighbours. That feedback is very valuable.

Do you trust your primary head? As you long as you promise it's all off the record they should be able to give you a warts and all view of local secondaries. They will know which children have flourished in which schools.

An easy journey to school is a very big plus.

OP, I would check if your schools are financially viable too, ours is an academy and the financial statements are available on the MAT's website. Unfortunately they show a growing deficit, falling pupil numbers and a MAT trying to find a good excuse to withdraw.
Luckily we have other options.

Changemyname Really agree about the school corridors - was very impressed when visiting DD's school how orderly and relaxed it felt when at change of lessons. I quite understand that the person giving you the tour is probably taking us into the "best" lessons but would be harder to arrange which kids are going to be around in the corridors.

As much as people want to make the best choice, I don't think we should all put too much pressure on ourselves, there will always be an element of chance involved. DD is in Year 9 and so far we're still very happy with our choice but some things I initially had reservations about I'm now "converted" to and one or two things I thought would be great having quite worked out in practice. So your initial impressions and expectations will always be changed by reality.

If a school feels "right" and there's nothing in the results/Ofsted to really worry you then I think you should feel confident in your choice.

Headteacher has said he'll be arranging for the Yr6's to meet with some current Yr8's from various local schools to talk about their schools.

Yes, I agree HPFA, if the school feels right it's probably the right choice. I hope the one we stand a chance of getting into feels good when we visit

That doesn't sound good NitroJenny. Academies are all new to me to I will take your advice and looks at their financials.

Looking back these were some of the reasons why we did/didn’t choose a particular school:

• Orchestra was small and a bit rubbish (hugely important for DS)
• school had a prison vibe (according to DS)
• headteacher at all boys’ school kept going on about “boys will be boys” and “boys need competition” in his speech (which we didn’t like, others were delighted)
• lots of chewing gum on floor/carpets
• graffiti in toilets/ dirty toilets (ask to pop into student loos during tours, not at open eve)
• languages or other subjects of interest offered at GCSE
• compare “progress 8” figures
• staff turnover
• do staff send their own children to the school?

Don’t pay too much attention to Ofsted, especially if the school hasn’t been inspected for a while. Outstanding schools are under a lot of pressure to stay outstanding and can transfer that to the children, good schools can be a healthier environment.

I would look at the following:
GCSE/A Level results and subjects taken. Extra curricular activities and enrichment opportunities, behaviour policy, smart and presentable learning environment (including staff and pupils).

Another thing to ask about, but which you might need to email a senior person to get a detailed answer, is about staff retention and amount of movement within the year.

Unfortunatley some schools are having massive turnovers - few staff who have been around for more than a couple of years, having to use non specialists (ask how often this happens) and having to rely on supply staff. In some schools these problems are much more accurate and it is the kind of thing which really does impact education. If you ask some very direct questions, particularly in an email, you are more likely to get useful info than from a teacher on the open day, who might not know.

You could ask older pupils showing you round, if they have had the same teacher throughout an exam course or how often they have supply teachers or if they have e peri encer teachers leaving mid-year - will be useful, but to a limited extent.

Well I submitted my initial admission form online yesterday - I just wanted to make sure I have one definitely submitted #paranoia

Retention of staff and having staff work in non-specialist areas is really important - thank you for reminding me ChocolateWombat. A friend of mine is the head of science in an Ofsted Outstanding school in a neighbouring borough and she says her school have been trying to recruit science specialists for years and just can't get enough despite having a great reputation.

A "prison vibe" acopyofacopy that sounds awful! I'll read up on Progress 8 at lunchtime. The gov.uk site has an explanatory video so I'll watch that as well.

I've got a big list of questions for both staff and pupils, things to look out for/be aware of. Two open evenings next week and three the week after. I'm really looking forward to them now.

If you get shown round by a child, ask whether they’d want their little brother or sister to go to the school.

I've been to two open evenings so far in very different schools. I liked the head of the first one and the teachers seem keen and driven. They have subject specialists - so no maths teachers teaching geography, or English teachers teaching physics. The pupils we spoke to were year 9 and 10 and all spoke highly of the school. Some had recently joined siblings. This is a small school - just 4 form entry. Quite strict - uniform checks, no make up or jewellery at all, automatic detention for swearing etc. Very hard line on bullying and head very keen to stress that the more able children are valued by the whole school but not to the detriment of the rest of the children. No sets in any subject. They follow a similar concept to current primary of Core > Challenge > Challenge + . I got the feeling that perhaps they'd had issues with bullying previously and so following closing and re-opening with a MAT they were keen not to let that culture develop again.

School 2 is the school we are most likely to be allocated: much larger 7 form entry. New, very impressive buildings, great facilities. Leadership and progress very heavily favoured. The concept of the "growth mindset" and "vertical teaching" were pushed. The head in his talk was less inspiring though. He spoke of challenging the pupils, of developing learning and leadership skills, of developing in all areas of schooling - whether academic or social. All good. Then he moved on to talking about the MAT ethos and he talked at length about the ideology of the trust and how it COULD NOT BE CHANGED and DON'T SEND YOUR CHILD HERE IF YOU DISAGREE. I understand what he was saying, but it was quite strange and almost a rant. Perhaps he'd had a bad day with people questioning the party line, who knows

The school has over 40 different extra-curricular options! Everything from Arabic to Manga. Again, teachers were keen and worked within their subject specialty. As the school has only been open for 2 years they are all quite new, although some have moved from other schools within the MAT.

Vertical teaching but no sets or streaming.

Both schools seem to operate similar policies about phones, tech generally, promotion of learning and personal development.

Pupils at both schools said their sibling/s had also come to the school and that they were happy that they had Bertrand

Three more this week.

Loads of good tips on here - thank you for starting!

The 2 Open Days I've been to (and one more this afternoon), don't have kids there while it's on. So I'm planning on visiting again (we are Year 5 so have some more time) as I think it will give a much better idea of a school to view when kids are in situ.

DD and I both keen on a mixed school, so I've also put together a list of qs to help gauge how important equality issues are to a school, and how well they address girl-specific concerns:
rosetintedtentacles.wordpress.com/2018/09/26/8-questions-to-ask-at-school-open-days/

Good luck with your choices!