Choosing secondary school dilemma

[Wigeon]

Another school dilemma - grateful for thoughts! We'll be applying for (state) secondary schools this October and have two front runners for DD. Both options are semi-selective so DD needs to sit various tests. Both schools are academic and get similar (excellent) results. Both are Ofsted Outstanding. Both are roughly the same size. Both schools have masses of extra-curricular activities, school trips, school traditions, good quality pastoral care etc etc. DD2 would probably follow her sister to whichever school DD1 ends up at.

DD1, having visited these and several other schools last year, says (after being gently asked on various occasions) that she has no preference at all.

SCHOOL A: mixed sex, out of town

Pros:

• DH teaches there. He therefore knows it's a really good school. There's a new Head who DH rates (and the old Head had already got the school in a really good place). DD has a really good relationship with DH and would probably like the fact that she could pop in to his department's staff room to see him if she needed to (his colleague's son is at the school and does this occasionally).

• Transport: DH could usually accompany DD there on their bicycles (he already cycles to work) - would probably take them 20-25 mins. If it was really rainy/ she had heavy things to take he could drive them. It's along busy roads with no possible quieter route, and I'd feel better for her safety if she was cycling with DH. 48 min walk if you didn't cycle. There are school buses although they are apparently quite expensive. There are public buses but they are really unreliable.

• It's mixed sex. DD1 would therefore have male and female friends, and be used to working with and socialising with boys (as she does now at her mixed primary school).

Cons:

• DH teaches there and has done for several years. Is it better not to go to a school where your dad teaches, and have your own life in your own school, rather than basically going to daddy's workplace?

• It's mixed sex. DD is academic but quite reserved, although confident in her own way. There is evidence about boys dominating in classroom discussions. She would probably let boys talk over her etc. However, DD2 is much more outgoing and would hold her own against anyone (male or female), if not dominate herself, so woudl probably be fine in mixed sex.

• Because DH teaches there, I hear about the worst aspects of behaviour, which very often seems to involve boys (swearing, occasionally fighting, being really rude, occasionally being excluded).

SCHOOL B: single sex school, in town

Pros:

• single sex. Clear benefits of girls-only education - eg girls much more likely to choose STEM subjects (this is a really persuasive argument for me). We compared numbers of girls doing physics at mixed sex School A above, School B and the national average - School A was better than the national average but School B was considerably better than School A.

Won't be dominated by boys in classroom discussions. The usual "no distractions from boys" during teenage years. School does quite a few things jointly with the local (state) boys' school (extracurricular things, and I think some lessons in the sixth form for less popular subjects).

I went to a single sex school and thrived there. No issues with bitchy girls (to me at least). Didn't feel my friends were overly emotional etc. I didn't particularly feel that I was massively missing out on knowing boys.

• Transport: slightly closer. 40 min walk, or probably 20 min cycle. Can also walk to main train station (15 min walk) and then catch branch line for 4 mins to the stop v close to the school (bit of a faff).

• School B has its own swimming pool on site. I also like the buildings better - older and generally more attractive, with a really nice assembly hall. School A has very bog standard buildings with a really small hall compared to numbers of pupils (this means the whole school can hardly ever get together, and it's a squash for things like school plays, concerts etc). However, the state of the buildings is clearly quite a minor consideration overall!

Cons:

• Transport: no school buses (given town centre location). Public buses unreliable (a current parent there has said they tried and the buses just didn't come when scheduled, and it's also my own experience of using local buses). Quickest cycle route is either along busy roads, or there's a bit of a back route along a footpath which cuts out some of the roads, but I wouldn't feel happy about DD cycling along it alone in the dark (ie half the year).

• single sex. Would DD miss out by not having male and female friends and working with boys and girls in class? Would being in mixed sex actually dilute the mystery of the opposite sex and she'd be better able to navigate the teenage years? She is pretty sensible and I don't think would go crazy and fail her GCSEs because there were potential boyfriends around (if she turns out straight not gay!).

• The stats re girls in single sex doing more STEM subjects don't necessarily apply to my DD individually; she might well choose STEM subjects even if she were in mixed sex. We are strongly supportive of her following her interests and of not gender-stereotyping and DD is very aware of this. Would this override the general stats re the benefits of single sex?

I am genuinely really torn over this, and having been thinking about it for many months (years!) I feel no clearer about what would be best for DD1 (and DD2). DH is probably erring on preferring School A (his school), but is very much up for the discussion. Help!

Sorry for mega post and thank you v much to anyone who reads to the end!

This to me sounds like choice of single verus mixed sex school, with a point in the favour of school A due to DH's inside knowledge!!

None of your other pros and cons seem particularly to favour one school or the other. I would say that cycling to your school with your dad is unlikely to be something they will want to do beyond first few weeks. Plus why assume DC2 will go to the same school as DC1? Seems very unfair to her

You don't really mention size of schools, pastoral care, choice of subjects, facilities, school ethos... I'd expect one of these to be a differentiator.

My suggestion would be to visit again in the next round of open days and think specifically about about how you see DD fitting in there. This might also help DD herself come up with a preference. A year is a long time at age 9 or 10.

Ooh, this is a tough one. Instinctively I would choose against going to a school with a parent. I think the school would have to be significantly BETTER to go against this, and it just isn't in this situation.

What does DD2 think? If she is likely to head there shouldn't her view be taken into account too?

Thanks for getting to the end of the OP! RedSky - yes, it does feel like the main differentiating factor is whether we want to go single sex. I did say in the first para that they are roughly the same size, similar pastoral offer etc (although not surprising you didn't remember by the time you'd finally made it to the end of my post!). Both place an emphasis on academics whilst also saying they want to have a family ethos where everyone fulfils their potential.

With the cycling, I'm just a bit nervous about my little DD braving the busy roads by herself (in winter, in the dark...), probably not helped by having been cut up by a car whilst on my bike last year, which resulted in chipped tooth and broken arm...But appreciate that having DH chaperone will increasingly be less important as she gets older, and we're choosing the school for 11-18 yrs, not just 11yrs...

Yes, definitely going round again this Sept, and apparently you can visit both during the school day (as well as the showpiece open evenings).

OverTheHedge - DD2 is only 7, and would probably say she wanted to go to Daddy's school. I do think she'd probably thrive equally in mixed or single sex because she's a bossy so and so

I'd choose single sex. Dd3 is about to go back into year 8 of a very good mixed comp. She has lots of male friends but a lot of the boys are a complete PITA and in this school at least, more time is spent on boys sport than girls. She's moving to single sex in year 9.

Actually I went to single sex school and there is a girls single sex school where we live and ds is at a coed nearby. Drom experience years ago and the school near my son's it seems the girls at the single sex school are boy obsessed whereas the ones at the coed treat them as friends.

My DH went to a school where his dad taught and he said it was fine. Had to call him Mr X etc but also never came top in the class he taught aa his dad would always mark.him ďown so people couldn't complain of favouritism!

Fortunately the school is big enough that DD would be timetabled never to be taught by her dad!

Regarding the single sex school, you will probably find that there are parents who do the school run who would be happy to ferry your daughter with their own child and others.

I may be wildly off the mark, but does school A begin with P? And does school B begin with W?

If these are the schools I'm thinking of, they're both excellent schools. We chose W because it was closer (and our daughter wanted to attend a single-sex secondary school).

Does a place at either school depend on your DD doing well enough in the selection test? If so, what is your non-selective option?

I would choose the co-ed.

My dd in Y9 mixes with many of boys and finds them fun. She Is not boy obsessed at all. From the purely anecdotal evidence I have some of of her old friends at single sex school nearly all have 'boyfriends' and are very single minded about them.

Yes there are some disruptive boys in dd's year but equally I hear stories from dd about some girls that are always causing some problem or drama. If you think it's only boys that swear then you might be very surprised as they get older.

Some of the boys in dd's school are amoungst the most talented and interesting pupils.

If she's OK with the idea of single sex, I'd go for that one purely on the basis it will allow her to be completely independent. If she turns out to be the (normal) sort of teenager who finds her parents inherently embarrassing, having her father at school could become an issue. Even if he doesn't teach her, his colleagues will and a lot of teenagers would be very self-conscious about the conversations which may take place in the classroom.

The boy obsessed thing is a lazy stereotype ime

Within a month of starting mixed secondary half the girls had 'boyfriends" including dd3. When he wanted to kiss her and she said no, he threatened to kill himself. Dd1 and 2 spent year 7 and 8 at a single sex school and didn't become boy obsessed in the slightest, far too busy with sport and drama!

@TheThirdOfHerName - yup, you’ve guessed them! How aren’t you finding W?

@MarchingFrogs - yes, it does depend on her mark in the academic test, or her doing well in the music test, or her getting a place at School A on the “children of staff” rule, which is likely but not guaranteed. And we don’t want to put School A first just because she might get in on the “children of staff” rule, if we prefer School B and given she has a decent chance of doing well in either the music or academic test. But we do have several possible routes in, although very aware none are guaranteed.

@AChickenCalledKorma - yes, I agree, that’s certainly a factor. DD and DH are close now but then she’s only 10.

We do have a third choice (also in the group of semi-selectives, but less competitive than Schools A and B), and need to think about our 4th choice.

@Twistella - I am worried about both the “boys as distraction” in mixed, but also about missing out in knowing boys as friends if we went single sex. The problem is the pros and cons of both!

@TheThirdOfHerName - obviously how ARE you finding W?

I am very impressed with W. The pastoral care is excellent and it has a very caring ethos. I like the new head (who has been in the post for a year now).

DD is not academically gifted (she got a place because her brothers were at the boys' school) but in the last three years she has thrived there and she got a commendation this year for effort and achievement.

Boys
DD sees single-sex education as a positive. She has three brothers (including a twin brother). She went to a co-ed primary and now likes having lessons without "immature boys messing about".
She is about to go into Y10 and neither she nor any of her friends have ever had a boyfriend. DS1 says his social life started becoming co-ed in Y11 and now (end of Y13) about a third of his friends are girls. His girlfriend goes to the school beginning with 'P'.

Buses
She gets the public bus to school (Arriva). They are not 100% reliable, and once or twice a term her journey to or from school takes twice as long due to the bus not turning up and she has to wait for the next one. It's frustrating, but the school has been understanding when she has been late for this reason.

Subject availablity
Because of funding cuts, the school has had to close its Food Tech department. Also due to funding cuts, they will not run a GCSE course if the class is too small to make it viable. In the year group about to start Y10, there were not enough girls interested in Product Design, so the school won't running that GCSE course this year. When it comes to A-levels, they can run courses jointly with the boys' school, which gives them more flexibility in offering subjects than other schools.

Lifts from parents who are members of staff
I should also disclose that I work at 'W'.
I work part-time so am not always available to give DD a lift to school. When I offer, she only accepts 50% of the time; half the time she chooses to catch the bus with her friends.
In the afternoon, I finish at least an hour after DD finishes. I give her a lift home if she has an after-school club; on the other days she has the option of working in the library until I finish, but she always chooses to get the bus home with her friends.
What time does your DH start and finish work? Will your DD be happy to hang around at school for that long?

I’d be going with the closer, mixed school where Dad teaches, all day long.

I think mixed schools are just so much better socially. I went to a mixed school. My best friends in high school were guys. Never had a boyfriend and boys weren’t a mystery to me. They were simply my very good friends who, in recent years, have come to visit and stay with their wives and kids. So yes, true, long-standing friendships with boys in secondary school can and does happen.
I also went to school where my mum taught. It just wasn’t as issue. I didn’t really see her at school but I liked having her presence there- like the safe lull of white noise.

Don’t underestimate the value of a stress-free, predictable journey to and from school. DS chose his secondary school really and it was such a great choice. He’s been totally happy there. But for me as a parent, I love that it’s a 10 minute cycle up the towpath or a lift in with Dad who works very closely to the school.

Knowing teenagers as I do, the cycling to school together (or lift) might only happen in Y7, perhaps to part of the way through Y8.

If you look at both schools from the point of view of your daughter travelling independently, what would your decision be then?

You are in the fortunate position of meeting the 'child of staff' criterion at school A, but that doesn't mean you have to put it as your first preference. On the other hand, if your DD would prefer to go to a co-ed school, then school A is the right choice.

I used to work in the library waiting for mum to finish. I loved it. It was never a terribly long wait and I got work done without distraction. Or I’d just put my head down and sleep.

TheVanguardSix the school where her dad works is slightly further away, not closer. And not reachable by train.

At the end of the day, these are both really excellent schools, among the best in the county. I'm sure your DD will be happy and do well, whichever she chooses.

@Wigeon
If you have any specific questions about school B, please feel free to send me a PM.

My previous advice was based on personal experience, going to a weekend language school where my DM was a teacher. She was a complete bitch to me about it. I hated it and her because of it. But, if someone had given me the choice of attending a school where she was the teacher or a different school, I would have done everything within my power to go to the different school. Your DD hasn't done that, so I assume she will be fine with her Dad being a teacher at the school.

I went to single sex school. I had loads of male cousins and friends who I hung around with on weekends, so boys weren't a mystery to me. But for a lot of the girls at my school, boys were a mystery and they were completely boy crazy. And when they were put in situations with boys they behaved quite badly and immaturely. I think in a controlled environment like a school where you DH is a teacher, your DD will learn to deal with boys so that they won't be a mystery for her. Then if she heads off to university, she is less likely to make foolish choices because of her previous lack of exposure to boys.

So overall I would choose the co-ed school. But... I would be watchful, and be ready to move her to the single sex school (if possible) if she hit difficulties.

I think this thread is confirming our problem - there isn’t a clear right choice, and both options have up and down sides!

@TheThirdOfHerName - thanks for such thorough answers about the actual school, will PM later.