Concerned about RC state school options (South London)

[googoogaga1]

We've been living in Oz since the early noughties. DH has a good job and as a family we have the right work life balance. DH's company want him to move back to London to work on a two year merger project (big bucks!)

DS1 is 10 now and on top of pulling him out of his fab state elementary school (primary school) here in Brisbane to put him in a secondary school in London, we are concerned about the quality of the state secondary schools.

We are RC (not hardcore or anything of the sort) and would like DS1 & DS2 to attend a good RC state school. We are confused by the Schools Admissions Code and are not clear whether academic children attend the faith schools or not. We have friends in London and they say that whereas these schools used to select their pupils giving a greater spread of academic pupils across good state comps, grammars and indies, that today all the able pupils are 'creamed off' by the few grammars.

This is a cause for concern for us as parents, as we would like DS to mix the full range of ability children in any school we choose. Have I failed to understand how the admissions process works? I went to a rural comp in the 90s and DH went to an all boys faith school in South London with an impressive alumni (he described it as a private school without the fees).

Anyone else in our position?

Yes, I think you have misunderstood a bit.

There are not that many grammars in London,and they are mainly in the outer boroughs. They select by academic prowess. They are not readily reach-able from all parts of London, and those who do not want to lumber their DC with an appalling journey to school or arrived outside the Admissions rounds and couldn't' get a place because those schools were full (and who cannot go private) use the other state schools. Which will all have a top set or two where the DC are pretty much indistinguishable from a class at a grammar. It's just that every class in a grammar is like that, whereas in a comprehensive, it might just be the top two sets.

Faith schools are pretty much just like any (non grammar) state school, though you need to fill in a Supplementary Information Form, and have it countersigned by your Parish Priest. They may ask about date of baptism and first communion, plus how often the DC goes to church. This information is used to prioritise RC applicants (all of whom will come above other faiths to no faith).

You need to check the Admissions criteria for each school. Some might prioritise worship in a particular parish, residence in a particular parish, or attendance at a (named) feeder RC primary school. You might need to email to find out what they do if you have moved during the 'qualification period' of attendance at Mass - you will probably need references from your current church, as well as the one you start to attend when you move.

South London is a large area. But in South West London Richard Challoner (boys) in New Malden gets good results and if you moved into North Surrey on the edge of South London St Andrew's (co-ed) in Leatherhead gets excellent results. www.st-andrews.surrey.sch.uk/
Academic children do attend both schools but they are mixed ability schools, so the academic ability will be much broader than a grammar school. This is the grammar school in the same borough as Richard Challoner www.tiffinschool.co.uk/home.html - their catchment is up to 12kms (I think) from the school, so quite big. Ranked entry according to exam mark with preference to certain groups e.g. children in care.
I don't think I would worry that all the more able boys are in the grammars and the less able in the other schools. Having grown up in South West London and in a borough with grammars, I would say that there is much less creaming than 30 years ago because the catchments are bigger. This has made it harder to get in, so boys who live locally who would have got in 20 years ago are displaced by boys who live further away and achieve higher exam results.

The other thing to consider is that churches often require applicants to sign in to church regularly (from over a year before or more), so that priests can be confident when signing supplementary forms to confirm families worship regularly.

You don't say whereabouts in South London you are going to be. There is a very good - well thought of - state RC comprehensive not far from me which produces good academic results and parents jump through hoops to get their children admitted. Also a good sixth form college.

rebecca36,

We're looking at settling around the Clapham/Wandsworth area.

DH says his old RC boys school in Croydon could be an option but an old classmate of his says the school may not be as he remembers it. DH grew up practically in the country but was able to commute to South London for school every day as it was quite picky and took boys from a wide area.

I wouldn't be up for a long commute and this certainly isn't the norm back in Oz.

Will you be back and with an address in time for the end of October deadline for admission into Yr 7 in 2019, or are you looking at a late application for this September?

Catholic schools in London require evidence from the priest that you attend mass regularly, I know one school specifies twice a month, for example. So bring a letter with you!

Unless you move into a full grammar county like Kent (where broadly the schools are seperated into Grammars which take the top 25% and high schools which take the rest) the selective / Grammar schools have no impact on the comprehensives in terms of the ability of intake.

You have the luxury of being able to move into the catchment for a good school, so I would find a selection of good schools and then position yourself well for them. I don’t know Wandsworth schools but see several discussed here as being very good, in addition to Graveney in Tooting but you would need to live practically in the doorstep to get in. Chestnut Grove in Balhsm.

Also in S London there is Charter if you live in North or East Dulwich, or Dunraven in Streatham.

If you moved close to one of these schools you would be in with an equal chance at Kingsdsle, which admits in lottery, not on distance, and also RC schools Bishop Thomas Grant. The London Oratory (admits on Lottery but I think has some weird grading system for Catholic observance) .

There are only two RC secondaries in Wandsworth - St Cecilia's in Southfields and St John Bosco in Battersea. But you are not restricted to only the schools in your home borough, so there may be other prospects eg St Thomas More in Chelsea has quite a lot of pupils coming from over the river.

Wimbledon College is a Catholic secondary. It may be worth taking a look.

St Cecilia's is C of E, not Catholic
Not sure about John Boscoe but I don't think it would be a problem getting in there as undersubscribed.
Think Wimbledon College is also Catholic.

Yes Wimbledon College is Catholic.

Sorry - got that rather badly round my neck, didn't I!? Glad there are people who corrected things.

Some RC schools have very good reputations and are highly sought after. Other do not, and some are actively swerved.

OP: I was wondering, do you particularly want an RC school? Or are you using 'faith school' as a proxy for 'good school' (something which might not be true)

And which English school year will you be seeking a place for, and when you you arrive? The applications round for Year 7 in 2019 will be opening in about a month and national deadline is 31 October. Applications are not normally accepted from children before they are resident in UK, so would you need to apply outside the main round?

According to DH the Oratory and his old school in Purley were the top RC schools when he was coming up through the English school system.

I think he just has an idea that he would like this kind of schooling for DS1, but an old classmate of his has suggested the schools mentioned may be very different to how he and DH remember them.

DS1 falls in to the following school year so not as much pressure TBH.

If you're only going to be here for 2 years can you afford private if you wanted to do that. Not because the schools are necessarily better but there is less pressure on where to live, admissions stress etc etc. Less of a lottery although have to do exams etc...

Presumably he will start y7 in 2019 though so the deadline will still be 31 October this year?

From there your son could get to LO and Cardinal Vaughan which are both highly regarded and sought after.

Also Wimbledon College.

I think many Catholic families don't even consider the localish super-selective grammars because the local church secondary school provision is good. Particularly true for girls, with Ursuline and St Phil's both local.

If he is 10 now (as you posted yesterday) he will be 11 next summer and therefore be going in to Y7 in September 2019. Unless he has a birthday before 1 September, in which case it is Y8 in Sept 2019.

When is it you will need him to start in the English school system?

It sounds likely you'll be making what is called an 'in year application' (ie one outside the main allocation rounds), where you can only be offered a place at a school which has a vacancy at the time you apply. You can however appeal for a place at a school you have been rejected from (that wouid be a whole other thread, though).

And you may need a Certifucate of Catholic Practice for oversubscribed schools:

www.catholiceducation.org.uk/guidance-for-schools/admissions

You need to find out in advance if the school/s you are interested in require one, in order to prioritise applicants, and what happens to families who have moved house during any qualifying period.

There's a website where you can check the proportion of able pupils. www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk
There are only 4 boys' grammars in the whole of South London i think, none in Surrey, so there are still loads of able pupils in non selective schools.

Although i suppose RC schools aren't non selective

DH was at John Fisher, Purley back in the 1990s. He's just told me that the school may still operate 'selection interviews' in the year prior to admittance, so maybe we've missed the boat? Are interviews normal or only practised by certain schools? What is the point of them?

Clapham to Wimbledon could be manageable for the College. Wimbledon looks luvly.

You won’t get into Cardinal Vaughan or the Oratory on a late application. They’re hugely oversubscribed and there’s virtually no movement once the places are taken up.

I think john fisher did interviews and exams in the 90s and selected on ability and how "naice" the family were. Eg. I remember a post about it on mumsnet where someone said they were rejected because their mum was a single mum
Don't think they do interviews/exam any more. Just select on faith

Don't think they do interviews/exam any more.

Re the interview, one hopes not, since that has been contrary to the Admissions Code for many years now

OP, I think your DH will probably find that quite a lot has changed since his school days with regard to admissions, nearly all of it a major improvement. If being interviewed to make sure that the child / parent is the right sort for a school is something which appeals, I'm afraid that you will have to go private. State schools are only allowed to request information which is pertinent to their published admissions policy- for instance, having a contact for a child is necessary, more is not, so whether that contact has a partner or not, or what their marital status is, is totally irrelevant to any school admission.

Here's the admissions policy
www.johnfisherschool.org/Admissions-and-Appeals-Prospective-Parents