St Paul’s Girls- tutoring question

[Bimmy76]

Hello

We’ve been thinking of applying for SPGS for my DD.

I understand that parents are required to tell the school about any tutoring their daughter has had. My assumption is that practically every girl who applies will have some tutoring (this is certainly my experience of talking to people about academic London school admissions). We were planning to get our daughter some help with exam technique although not any substantial subject-based tuition.

I just wondered how parents generally deal with the question from the school. I want to be honest but will being so count against my DD? Would hate to be honest then find that my DD doesn’t get in because everyone else lied.

I know someone going this year- I don't think they were asked about tutoring. They had some- state school so had a bit of exam technique etc- and I know that others at private schools had it as well. As you said, I would be amazed if 99% of those going hadn't...
My DD wasn't asked about tutoring at any of her interviews ( she didn't do St P though). I wouldn't have told her to lie if asked as could imagine it would backfire but I would have told her just to say she had some exam technique practice, which is true as they did none at school. It's all so ridiculous- the schools say don't tutor but they know they all do.

They ask on the form. Just be honest. We were. I suppose if you are one of the (reputed!) families who do several hours numerous times a week while attending a top prep, you may wish to word your answer carefully We just said she was having an hour most weeks to help with exam technique, because her school was not preparing her for 11+. They did not discuss it with my daughter at all.

I can't remember if we were asked (for North London Collegiate at 7+ ) or not but I suspect for ST P and NLCS it will be how you do in the exam and interview not whether you were tutored or not that will make most of the difference so just be honest.

Whats the difference between having a paid tutor and unpaid(parents/family friends/relatives who could spend time, even much more time than the paid tutor). My daughter goes to state school, both myself and my husband work long hours(still on the train now, not home yet), we are paying 1.5hr/ week for a group tutor(7 girls), although the tutor is taking 2 months summer holiday. I dont see my daughter has any more advantage than another child who is tutored by their parents/family etc.

Ridiculous question asked by some schools and very unfair on 10/11 year olds to put them on the spot in a very pressurised situation. And it is also very common for students to carry on with tuition at a number of very academic London schools. Nothing wrong with that, but there doesn't seem to be many complaints from the schools then...

I will tell the truth on the form, as it would put dd in an awful position if she had to lie. As it happens, she is at a state primary and hasn't got a tutor though we are doing some Bond books at home - we'll see if she gets through the pre-test..

Whats the difference between having a paid tutor and unpaid(parents/family friends/relatives who could spend time, even much more time than the paid tutor)

Nothing. It's all tutoring a child to help her/him pass the entrance exams.

My dd is at one of these academic girls schools and the less help they need getting a place, the easier it will be for them once there. Those girls that were heavily tutored are going to struggle once there (and may indeed need to keep getting external help).

Don’t make up stuff and be honest. I don’t think it makes any difference and it will make your DD interview awkward if she’s asked and she has to lie. Our DD got into SPGS and we were honest on the form and I think the selection process is mainly based on entrance exam performance, school references and interviews.

Thanks, everyone.

Children are not asked about tutoring - at least DD wasn't. The question is on the application form and is asked only of parents. I would just be honest. An hour a week is neither here nor there, frankly, and I don't think it will make much difference to the outcome. I do think not being honest might make a difference.

Also, what you said - "We were planning to get our daughter some help with exam technique although not any substantial subject-based tuition" - is exactly what we did, and it worked out fine.

I suspect you have done what any normal parent wishing a high-quality ed. for DD has done and support her prep. for the entrance exams. Just be honest. Eldest DD was tutored for Wycombe Abbey n we were open about it. Well done for choosing quality education. Support you 100%.

Hi, could you please tell me of a tutor who prepares for St. Paul’s girls and Wycombe abbey

I suspect you have done what any normal parent wishing a high-quality ed. for DD has done and support her prep. for the entrance exams. Just be honest. Eldest DD was tutored for Wycombe Abbey n we were open about it. Well done for choosing quality education. Support you 100%

Dear Lord, where do I start? Not all "normal parents" want selective education for their children, sometimes because they disapprove in principle, sometimes because it would not suit their DCs anyway, and of course the majority of "normal parents" don't have the choice anyway.

And it hardly needs saying that "high quality" education is not confined to the private sector or to selective schools.

HPFA you are being unfair picking on something said in a very specific context. I don’t think anyone would disagree with what you say but this isn’t a thread discussing rights and wrongs of tutoring or private schools but what the OP should
say on an application form!

It's a fair point mariniere - I never go on threads just to criticise people's choices - people ought to be able to ask for advice about individual private or grammar schools without being harangued by those who oppose such institutions.

But it's offensive to imply that any "normal parent" would naturally want their child to attend a private or selective school. This sort of casual assumption that a state school is automatically inferior should also be challenged when it appears - it's far too common and it's very damaging. I don't think you get a free pass on Mumsnet to make these sort of comments, no matter what the thread.

And if someone uses a thread on specific comprehensive schools to make offensive remarks about people who send their kids to private schools that's wrong as well and private school parents would be entitled to challenge it.

Greenleave, totally agree. It's ridiculous questions, and biased against working parents (mostly mothers). As busy working mother, everyday when I come back home, finish all housework, and finally have the time to sit down to go through some homework with my DS, it's nearly 8 o'clock. And I'd be lucky if DH comes back home before my boy goes to bed, like once a month. However I know many other kids get picked by mother at school at 3.30pm, and do homework and/or extra work with mother for 2 or 3 hours a day before dinner. And they can proundly claim to the school that they never "tutored" their kids. What's the difference? How stupid the questionnaire is designed! And as a leading selective academic school, they are just trying to pretend not to know everyone is tutored.

There are huge variations in the amount of tutoring that children at schools like SPGS will have both before joining and when in the school.

Overall these schools are interested in potential, so want to have an idea of educational background. Close to a decade ago we knew a girl who had no play dates for six months before the SPGS exam, the mum was quite open about it, and a lot of tutoring, both before and after school. She ended up struggling and left after a couple of years. DS was surprised, at a comparable school, at how much tutoring some of his peers had. (One bright boy from east Asia spent every vacation at a tutorial college - not unusual where he came from.)

But it all came out in the wash. DS and friends, who relied on the school to educate and the prep school to prepare, were not top of the year but have done very well at University. Some others, where there was more pressure to achieve whilst at school, became burnt out, or found it difficult to switch to self-motivation.

It’s a long haul. They will be in FTE until at least around the age of about 22. Pacing is vital, as is the idea that education and learning can be fun.

The only exception is that kids at state school might benefit from a bit of external preparation with content and how to cope with exams. And it is worth considering extra support for kids with problems in either maths or English, as these are building blocks for other subjects. Aside from that time outside school is probably better spent broadening experience, is sport or music, or simply hanging out with friends and family. Schools like SPGS work best if the fit is natural. London has lots of good alternatives.

www mummy, do not think that because your child is tutored every other child is. Overemphasis on school performance is a crap way to parent a child. And working full time has no bearing on a child doing their own homework on their own.

My experience was that parents who tutored did so to give themselves bragging rights on the school run. There are some very competitive London mums.

We virtually never sat down with our DC when they were doing homework. It was their homework, and other than us making sure that they had quite time to do it, it was up to them. DD indeed never brought homework home, up until the age of 16. She did it at lunchtime or on the tube. School advice always was not too spend too long on it. Though perhaps she took this advice a bit too seriously, this was far better than others who seemed to spend hours each evening.

I can’t see there were any great difference in outcome, other than some of the kids with very controlled childhoods finding the switch to University more difficult. And they would often annoyingly would fail to pay attention in class knowing they would go through the material again with their tutor.

Needmoresleep, your story is great and insightful...however dated years back given your children is at University now. I will be even more stupid to send my child to any 11+ without any preparation, now the form should have said, does your child do any 11+ preparation at all either from school, from home or in a tutor centre and list down the details then its more accurate. For parents like us or @wwwmummy, we are lucky to even see a glimpse of the kid during the week and they dont go to prep school so how on earth they are prepared.

Some of parents say, my children passed all 11+ at extremely high mark without any tutor. The truth is its without any “external tutor”(but the child did go to various “workshops”) because either the parent is very lucky to be able to do it themself and/or it suits them and their family the best.

www mummy, do not think that because your child is tutored every other child is.

it's not what I think but what I saw or was told from people I know personally. Not just only SPGS, it's feeding school Bute house also asking for tutor form.
And just because your DC was not tutored a decade ago, do not THINK it's the case as of today. The competition level is different.

Just to add another data point: we have gotten two of our daughters into SPGS without any tutoring (the second one was this year). We also did not do any "parental tutoring" - my kids would have hated it. The most I did was try to expose them to interesting things intellectually (subscribe to interesting magazines, steer them towards good books to read, take them to a play etc.).

BUT they attended an excellent and academic West London primary school (where they were very happy), that had a lot of focus on exam prep in Years 5 and 6.

So my advice is don't see tutoring as a black and white issue. If your child goes to a well-run primary that is focused on preparing for the schools you re applying to, I would not do it. But if you think your school is not performing that role, for whatever reason, then don't rule it out.

Zombie thread

Not that zombie, Wadrin. It’s about this year’s process, which will be of interest to people thinking about applying for next year.

bookie Do you mean from a prep school? My dd is at a state primary that doesn’t do any exam prep except for SATS, which means it’s all after the entrance exams. So we did home preparation on exam technique, the Y6 maths she hadn’t yet covered at the start of Y6, plus NVR (which she had never seen before).

Yes our daughters went to a prep school. My advice was more general though. In one of my daughter's year groups at prep school, there was a girl applying to a highly selective grammar school, and her parents did a LOT of extra work at home, as the prep school was more focused on West London private schools, and not familiar with the grammar school exams.

In your case it sounds like you did not feel your daughter was being prepared for the school you were aiming for (presumably SPGS), so perfectly sensible to give her some extra help.