Do sets in the early years of secondary tally with gcse results?

[JayRayDay]

DDs just finished year 7 and hasn't done that well in her end of year exams so will be going from the top set to the mixed ability stream for all subjects except English and maths. These are streamed for separately as sets 1 to 3 and she is moving from 1 to 2. TBH I am a bit gutted as I have heard the behaviour and expectations are not as great but I can't do much about it. We always has dd down as a bright child but now I am wondering if that's not so much the case. I worry that she will get dragged into bad behaviour by the lower sets and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. In your experience, do the lower or middle sets tend to always end up with lower grades for gcses?

How big is the year and each set?

At our school set 1 and set 2 do the same work so there's little difference between bottom of set 1 and top of set 2.

You're forgetting that it's possible to move up again if she does well in y8. All of my kids have moved sets during their academic career (up and down)

Some kids will do better in set 2 than set 1 because they will be more confident being top of set 2 than bottom of set 1. Finding confidence in maths can really help ability.

Sometimes set 2 get a better teacher than set 1. My ds was in set 2 and had Head of Maths who seems like a great teacher.

DC's school does not set at all (except maths). Their results are virtually identical to a local school that has an intake with similar profile, but sets in every subject from day 1.

I believe the research shows that being in sets is only beneficial for those in about the top 2% of the ability range.

If your DC's school only has 3 streams (streams or sets - they are different?) then the middle stream/set will still contain a fair number of able children.

Well, you could say that by definition, children in the low/middle sets are achieving less than those in the top so they will on average achieve lower GCSE results.
But the school should structure so that moving sets is possible, and always so that a child can be stretched within whatever set they are in.
DD1 moved up a set for maths every year (even between y10 and y11).
Also being taught at your ability may lead to better results than if the pace is too fast or the discussions too high-brow.

You seem to be muddling up setting and streaming. Which does the school do? If setting, how many sets are there? Dropping down 1 shouldn't make much difference and may actually make things easier. I was consistently top of my year for English and got top O level grades from the second set.

The issue will be what work.the lower sets actually do.

Most schools I know have 4 or 5 sets and then the lower only seem to cover foundation level which obviously does cap the grade that can be achieved.

Check with the school that set 2 covers the same work as set 1 and that they will access Higher papers

The school is quite large, 210 per year.

I thought streaming and setting were the same. I probably mean sets.

She's only year 7 going into year 8. Sometimes the lower sets means more support in understanding than sitting in the top set and not knowing what to do.
I was in set 4/5 for English, got AA in my GSCEs which was higher than friends in set 1 due to the support I received.
Maths I moved down from 1 to 2 glad I did I struggled and used to sit there feeling like a idiot as I didn't get it.
Surely it's better for her to be learning and understanding then sat in the top set and struggling so thinks what's the point!

Most subjects now only have 1 tier for GCSE, the exceptions being Maths & Science (& MFL? not sure on this).

Setting - per subject so you can be top set English and bottom set maths.
Streaming - top, middle and bottom stream, so if you are ace at English and hopeless at Maths there is a compromise to be made. Some schools then set within the streams, eg T1,T2,T3, M1,M2,M3 etc. Moving streams is usually harder than moving sets.

Sets roughly tally with KS2 SATs results, KS2 SATs results roughly tally with GCSE results.

But that’s only on average. There should be plenty of potential for movement between sets every year. In addition there is usually overlap between the sets and some students in set 2 may well outperform those in set 1.

I’ve seen kids drop down through the sets and others rise up. Mostly kids stay in about the same group, but within a set at GCSE you’d expect a spread of about 3 GCSE grades at my school (which is about the same size).

Yes there are still tiers for MFL as well as Maths and Science.

There is a rough correlation but it depends on the school and the ability range of the cohort. So if it is a fairly high achieving school or a particularly able year group then there may be very little difference between the bottom of set 1 and the top of set 2.

I am a bit confused about the 3 sets in a year group of 210 though. dd was in a school of a similar size and there were 7 sets for Maths.
Her cohort was quite able for Maths and sets 1 to 5 took Higher tier Maths with set 6 a mixture and set 7 Foundation.

I imagine OP means (for example) that there are 2 "Set 1"s, 3 "Set 2s" and 2 "Set 3"s.

I wouldn't expect a school to be yet thinking about foundation and higher tiers at GCSE whilst the DC are in Y7 ...

Just to explain: The other subjects (not maths or English) are split into two sets:top and mixed ability with 3 of the classes in top and 4 in the mixed. They are named after famous scientists. The names of the top sets are then used to group the maths and English sets. For example dd would be in something like Newton for her 'other' subjects and was in Newton 1 for English and Newton 1 for maths. She is now being moved into a mixed ability set ( let's call it 'Curie' to keep it to the science theme) and Newton 2 for English and Newton 2 for maths. So basically she is moving into a mixed ability sets for her 'other subjects' and into the middle sets for maths and English which is mostly filled with children from the mixed ability set. I have heard there are behaviour issues with the mixed ability set and alot more challenges. I am just worried dd will be dragged down. She did so well at primary.

Lets be clear on one thing. If one stream has 3 classes and another has 4, it isn't top and 'mixed ability', it is higher and lower streams, with a range of ability in each. However they try to spin it.

So Newton and Curie are streams?
Newton is the A stream and Curie the B stream.
Then they set for English and Maths within the stream?

Or do they set for English and maths across the streams so kids from both Newton and Curie can be in the same maths/English class?

They set within the streams. It's a bit confusing as they only use the name of the top sets in the name of the English and maths set.

Eg, Newton is top along with 2 other groups.
Curie is mixed ability along with 3 other groups.

English and maths are names after the 3 too sets with the number 1,2 or 3 to indicate top, middle or bottom.

DD was in the top stream and English 1 and Maths 1. Now she will be in the mixed ability stream and English 2 and maths 2. They seem to have children from across the streams in the different English and maths sets. My friends dd is in mixed ability but was also in set 1 for maths.

Sorry I meant they set for English and maths across the stream. You can be in 'mixed ability' but still be in top set for maths and English.

Wow that sounds complicated and confusing.

But the bottom line is your DD has moved from set 1 of 7 for Maths and English to set 2 of 7? I really wouldn't worry.

No, there are 3 sets for maths and English and 2 for everything else. It's ever so confusing. There are 7 classes each named after scientists. 3 of them are top stream and 4 are mixed ability. This is their main group and covers all subjects except maths and English. Dd was in the top group but will now be in the mixed group.

Im addition, maths and English are set seperately in sets 1-3. Dd was in 1 but will now be in 2.

Basically I've slept on it and realise I am being a bit of a knob. It doesn't really matter which group she's in as long as she's doing well. I had heard there were behavioural issues in the mixed group but my friend is a teacher there are reassured me. She thinks it's just snobbery amongst the parents.

If there are 7 classes of 30 in the year. Then there kind of has to be 7 maths classes (at least)? There can't only be 3?
I am still very confused, but as long as you understand it, then that's OK!

I think it's something like 2 are top, 3 are middle and 3 are bottom.

DD started off in set 1 for maths, science and England. At the end of Year 7 she was moved to set 2 for English. Four sets in each band. She always felt she struggled compared to the others in maths and science and at the end of each year was sure they'd move her down. I don't know what your hopes are for your DD, but my DD got an 8 in maths, 7s in English and A*AA in science. Her English results were lower, but I don't know whether that was due to her own ability or the set she was placed in.

Well done to your daughter.