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Secondary education

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What makes a super-selective school?

47 replies

user149799568 · 17/05/2018 14:44

As opposed to a merely selective school?

OP posts:
AtiaoftheJulii · 17/05/2018 22:41

I've always taken it as distinguishing them from grammar schools in grammar counties like Kent or Bucks. So the standalone grammars, which generally then have a lower success rate for applicants because there are a lot of people applying for one school rather than 3 or 5.

ScrubTheDecks · 17/05/2018 23:04

Kent has some super-selective as well as selective Grammars.

MrsPatmore · 18/05/2018 10:19

ScrubTheDecks, I don't think Kent is a truly super selective area. Judd and Dartford, for example, have an allocation for top scorers with no distance but other places are offered to higher scorers within a distance criteria.
True super selectives, I would say, are those that offer on score only with no distance criteria such as Queen Elizabeth Boys or St Olaves.

Taffeta · 18/05/2018 10:43

ScrubTheDecks, I don't think Kent is a truly super selective area. Judd and Dartford, for example, have an allocation for top scorers with no distance but other places are offered to higher scorers within a distance criteria.

It’s just splitting hairs really though.

If a school offers places based on highest scores, rather than just a pass, then that makes it more than selective. Super selective. So even if a proportion of places are for highest scoring catchment children, rather than can live anywhere kids, it’s still more than selective as it’s based on score, not just a pass.

Thatsalritehun · 18/05/2018 16:36

A super selective, in my opinion, is one that is very over-subscribed. And therefore, it’s not just “passing” the entrance test and thus being eligible for a place because you passed and you live nearby, but doing really well in said test and competing for limited places against other students from some distance away.
Some of the most sought-after London grammars have upwards of 12 applicants per place, and kids travel for an hour or more to get to them. That is some competition! (though granted, many of the applicants will have also applied to other local selective schools and obviously can’t take up a place at more than one).
Administering this frenzy of applications must be an expensive headache for the schools concerned- and I suspect many of them aren’t particularly well funded due to low percentages of disadvantaged and statemented pupils.

Sittingintgesun · 18/05/2018 17:26

I believe that it a state school that selects on the basis of scores, rather than a normal grammar that has a passmark and then selects on distance.

Some super selectives may have a catchment area, but it will be large.

Roomba · 18/05/2018 17:37

Ah, then DS attends a super selective by that definition.

portico · 19/05/2018 11:38

Super selective is applied to grammar schools. Super selectives have no catchment area. So, if 100 places up for grabs, only the 100 highest test scoring candidates from all applicants will gain places.

SunburstsOrMarbleHalls · 20/05/2018 17:37

I live in a grammar area were any child that passes the 11+ will usually get a place at the preferred school. For the last few years some of the local grammars have admitted less than their published admission number for year 7 entry.

Dixiechickonhols · 20/05/2018 20:59

No catchment. So anyone can sit 11+ and best 150 scores get a place. So very competitive and every mark counts. Children know their score.
Contrast with Grammar my dc is at. Every year Less children pass in catchment than places - usually only about 2/3 of places filled from catchment. Pass mark is said to be about 75% so a pass and in catchment and you know dc has a place in October at start of yr 6 (1st March is a formality) they don’t release exam marks so everyone starts on equal footing.

CatMuffin · 21/05/2018 16:27

Do they release the other places to dc outside catchment Dixie?

Moominmammacat · 21/05/2018 16:56

DAOS in Potters Bar is a "comprehensive". In recent years it's had up to 1130 applicants for 65 places. The Independent quoted QE Boys as having 2000 applications for 180 places. This article has some entertaining stats ... www.spectator.co.uk/2015/03/the-truth-about-private-school-admissions/

ChocolateWombat · 21/05/2018 18:57

The 11+forum which is probably the most visited website about 11+ exams and state Grammars, takes super selective to mean a school which selects purely on score - so no catchment.

In areas which are fully selective such as Bucks, perhaps 25-30% go to Grammars, and you gain a place by passing and then based on distance. In a superselective school, there is a narrower range of ability usually - people speak of the top 5% in some. This is because more people apply per place, so the school is able to take perhaps the top 150 of 2400 applicants.

Increasingly super selectives are introducing distance criteria for at least part of their cohort. Technically, they may no longer be true superselectives. So schools which have an 'inner area' criteria won't be quite as selective as an area with no area definitions at all. However, if they still select by score within the inner area, they will be more selective than simply using a pass mark. Many of these reserve some places for out of area students and those places are truly super selective and hard to come by because applications per place are high and often only the very able even try.

Some schools like Tiffin girls and boys schools now have catchment areas but because they are very urban with large populations, still have vast numbers sitting, so can be very selective, but I guess not truly super selective because of the catchment who have a chance of a place.

The move towards adding catchments (albeit quite large ones) is I think to try and make schools more local, because fewer and fewer local children were getting into true superselectives. Also when children travel vast distances, extra curricular, parental involvement at school events etc all becomes more difficult.

Some of those that remain truly superselective with no distance cut-offs or prioritisation at like QE boys and St Olaves are always in the very top few schools. It just shows, that whilst Grammars do very well by their students usually, the level of selection plays a key role in outcomes.....not surprisingly, the cleverest children who fight off the most competitions at 11, also go onto perform best at 16 and 18, in school wide terms. Those kids would likely do extremely well in either standard Grammars or Comps, but whether they would do exactly as well is impossible to say. There is certainly kudos of going to such schools or for parents, having kids in those schools. And perhaps there is a benefit of learning with other extremely clever kids too, rather than just pretty clever kids...but perhaps it doesn't make any difference.

Cobrider · 21/05/2018 19:02

MrsPatmore The skinners school presently admits on score only, it is a true super selective by your definition then.
It is looking to change that to similar criteria as Judd from next year though.

Dixiechickonhols · 21/05/2018 19:53

CatMuffin yes the other places are filled from the highest out of catchment scores, not distance so those places are super selective. Out of catchment children need to be passing very well, rumoured to be 90% to get a place. Again those with he top scores OOC are told they definitely have a place in October (If they name school on the CAF) Again scores are not released for OOC passes just wait list place.
Many in catchment choose not to sit 11+ as there are excellent alternatives and those that do there isn't frenzied tutoring.

AlexanderHamilton · 21/05/2018 20:00

Vocational schools are independent. There is also some element of parental fee contribution on a sliding scale.

user149799568 · 21/05/2018 22:38

... QE boys and St Olaves are always in the very top few schools. It just shows, that whilst Grammars do very well by their students usually, the level of selection plays a key role in outcomes.....not surprisingly, the cleverest children who fight off the most competitions at 11, also go onto perform best at 16 and 18, in school wide terms.

In the case of St Olaves, at least, it appears that the level of selection at 16 played a non-negligible role in their outcomes at 18.

OP posts:
Taffeta · 22/05/2018 07:00

The selection at St Os was at the end of first year of sixth form - so 17 not 16 - which made it headline grabbing in its atrociousness.

user149799568 · 22/05/2018 09:05

The selection at St Os was at the end of first year of sixth form - so 17 not 16 - which made it headline grabbing in its atrociousness.

Thanks for clarifying.

OP posts:
MrsPatmore · 22/05/2018 10:45

The policy at St Olaves has changed now with the departure of the recent Head. Agree with chocolate wombat that the amazing academic outcomes at 16 and 18 for these schools are not surprising when you have that level of selection at 11.

spababe · 25/05/2018 21:17

I live near to a superselective. There are lots of rumours tales of kids taking the entrance 11+ who live miles and miles away (even abroad) then either moving house if they get in or renting and living in rented in term time then going back to their own homes in the holidays (renting here presumably cheaper than private school fees in London.

bevelino · 26/05/2018 16:36

According to www.schoolrun.com a super selective school is, and I quote.

The schools that pick the very top performers are informally known as super-selective, and in some cases pupils may need to score as much as 99.5 per cent in the 11+ to win a place.

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