Grammar or not?

[anomalummy]

We live in Croydon. State primary. Kids from our school end up mainly in local comps, with a handful going to privates like Whitgift/Trinity, and some to Sutton grammars.

My son is bright - in the top 3-5 in a high ability class. We started him with tutoring with a view to considering grammars, but now I'm not so sure. He is managing the tutor's workload well and they say he would likely pass/be offered a grammar place.

Can anyone tell me what the reality of a grammar is compared with being a bright child in a comprehensive? Is my bright but a bit lazy (has never really had to try to is not used to having to work hard) child likely to continue coasting and not reach his potential in a comp? On the other hand, is a grammar going to be extremely pressured and make him unhappy? Our priorities are his happiness - at school and long-term. So long as he finds a job which makes him happy and fulfilled we couldn't care less if he went to Oxbridge/became a lawyer/doctor/accountant etc.

Any insights most welcome! Thank you!

We were in your position. My DS went to the local Grammar in September and has thrived. Doing much better than we expected, made lovely friends and is the happiest I have ever known him.very keen to get to school. It's like he has found the right place for him.

Good luck with your choices.

We have a bright but very lazy DS and were in your position a few years ago. We had a very good, but huge (2800 pupils), secondary school at the bottom of our road or a good grammar 15 miles away. The facilities at the non grammar were actually better than the grammar. However, DH worked at the non grammar and saw how the bright, lazy kids slipped under the radar and didn't reach their potential as they weren't pushed enough. For our DS this would have been a disaster as he would have coasted along, doing the bare minimum expected of him.

We decided to send him to the grammar as it would push him harder. However, this can be a stressful and pressurised environment for some kids. Our DS had always liked clear boundaries and was happy to have a foot on his bottom at times. It never caused him any anxiety or upset. He thrived at grammar and he is now 3 weeks away from his first A level exam and we are still very happy with our choice of a grammar. He isn't going to get all A* but is predicted AAC. We know we would be looking at much lower grades if he had gone to the non grammar.

my DD chose grammar and now has mental health issues from - in her words - "the unrelenting pressure to do well". Do not know if it would be the same elsewhere, but yes, we do regret it.

Oh gosh, thank you for sharing your experiences. A very mixed response! It's so hard to know what to do for the best.

My sons are at one of the Sutton grammars. It's a lovely school and is not the ruthless hothouse it is portrayed as. The school puts a lot of emphasis on extra-curricular activities. My sons do well academically so it might be different if they were struggling. The behaviour is very good.

Have you been to the Open Evenings of the grammars? Wilson's and Wallington Boys should be coming up this term.

Know your child. If he stresses about perfection and worries about not being in the top 5, then you need to think about what the grammar school is like regarding managing expectations of the children. Some Grammars really do not have unrelenting pressure to do well. They, generally, have high expectations but that’s not the same thing.

I think there are differing Grammars too. There is probably a wider range of ability in county wide Grammars (Bucks) than there are at the super selective ones. I guess you are looking at the latter.

Grammars suit children who love learning, enjoy being with similar minded children and thrive on the pace of the learning. I’m not sure they suit worriers and perfectionists who take every little setback to heart. So, be realistic about how your child works as a person, not just his academic ability.

The other thing to factor in, is how good are the comps if children are creamed off to Private or Grammars? What is progress 8 looking like? Will he find like minded children with similar interests? How many of them? Will he be annoyed at others who don’t want to work? It all comes down to where he will fit in so you must visit the schools and see what the pupils there think of them. What about extra curricular, drama, music, art and sport? How do they compare? Children are usually very honest about schools!

Can anyone tell me what the reality of a grammar is compared with being a bright child in a comprehensive?

Depends entirely on the school itself. Some comps are able to give the "bright" child the same kind of opportunities, such as offering triple science, 2 MFLs, further maths, etc., some don't. In some, their "top" sets/streams are high achievers, i.e. mostly aiming at grades 7-9, at others their "top" sets are aiming at 5+. You really can't generalise and you do have to look at each school separately. There is no such thing as a "comp" - there can be massive differences between comps.

Dd1 has been at a ss grammar since year 7 . She has thrived 8 a , 3 a's . The school has created many opportunities that for some reason states don't offer. Dd2 went to state comp year 7. Came out with 7 a and 4 a's. Now gone to grammar for 6th form. Now we are noticing the difference. The grammar seem to prepare beyond the gcse so at Alevel she has felt a bit left behind. She's very motivated and has pulled her grades right up. Now doing her cv she has very little extra academic stuff to note where as dd1 had loads. Grammars seem to offer more and keep the kids working where as comps they are left to their own devices a bit more. Not sure if this is any help at all. Should add Dd2 loved her comp and would have happily stayed if they had done 6th form

The very reason that there is far more debate about grammar schools today than 30 years ago, is proof comprehensive schooling has failed !

35 years ago when I was 11 grammar schools were on their last legs, it seemed impossible that even Kent, would have any grammar schools in 10 years !
The whole of the political establishment on the left and right had conveyed grammar schools to the dustbin.

Therefore why 35 years later are grammar schools more 'valued' than 35 years ago.

I can only say this is because comprehensive education ,or notion of it has failed outside the virtue signalling of the left

We are local to you and DS1 is at a grammar and DD starting in Sept.

DS1's best friend, who was just as academically able as him, just failed the 11+ and so went to the local school so I've always felt we've had a comparison over the years.

Based on this I'd say:

• the turnover of staff has been a lot less in the grammar, DSF (DS friend) had 4 different physics teachers in Year 10. Teachers did obviously leave the grammar but not mid-year.

• DSF didn't seem to be given textbooks for the sciences, rather he had worksheets or photocopies of pages.

• Pastoral care is very good in both.

• AFAIK neither boy partakes but drugs seem just as rife at both (this does my old fashioned head in that it is easier for them to buy dope than cigerettes!).

But the main difference for us has been that it is OK to be clever and do well at the grammar. DSF has felt he has to pretend to peers he hasn't done any work and his Mum feels he is coasting. There is definitely more pressure on DS to push himself.

HTHs

OP. Unfortunately there are shortages of cash and teachers in all schools. Hundreds of teachers are leaving the profession. Schools are having great difficulty retaining or finding good teachers for maths, physics and subjects like DT. Our local comp has had severe shortages of staff and has reduced subjects. As wineoclock says grammars seem slightly more able to keep their teachers. If I were you and your DS is doing well I would put him through the grammar exams to see how he does. You don't have to make your mind up yet, you can decide when you see the results. You also need to visit the schools, grammar and comp and ask a lot of questions. Grammar is not that hard for able and enthusiastic children.

Thank you very much again. Just heading out on school run so will reply properly later - just wanted to drop in to say thanks :-)

My son started grammar school in September. He definitely comes under the bright but lazy category. Unfortunately he's really unhappy and I'm seriously considering moving him for next year. Only one boy from his school moved with him and they're not friends. He has eventually made a couple of friends but they're not "good" friendships. He's also struggling massively with the pressure and the sheer workload. He has at least an hour of homework every night, plus a few hours at the weekend.

Thank you so much for all your comments. It’s really useful to know what sort of questions we should be asking of both the grammars and the comps to find out which would suit our son best.

wineoclockthanks, thank you, those comparisons are really enlightening! One of my main fears is that he would coast at the comp and regret it later. I know personally (I went private) that had I been given too much freedom at secondary I would have failed miserably as sadly I didn’t have the self-motivation to work until university.

Good also to know about pastoral care – does anyone know what this is like at Croydon comps generally? Riddlesdown, Warlingham, Harris, Thomas More, thoughts on the new Coombe Wood?

LilithTheKitty I’m sorry to hear about your DS. That must be such a worry for you. You might be interested to know one of the mums at school whose DS is in year 8 at Wilsons says she noticed he had far less homework than friends at Riddlesdown! I wonder if it’s just a massive change from primary whichever secondary you go to. Does anyone else know what is “normal” for year 7?

I've an elder son too who went to a normal secondary school and the homework burden was a lot less there. I think part of the problem is the focus on languages. He's doing Russian, French and Mandarin so all the extra revision and practise work that comes along with languages is trebled. I also had to buy a keyboard because his music homework was to practise playing a song and the teacher didn't accept a lack of an instrument as a reason for not having practised.

Coombe Wood sounds like a great school on paper and the leaders sold the school well at the information evening earlier in the year. It falls under the same multi academy trust as Wallington County Grammar and seems to have a similar ethos. Those who are good a sport can apply to do a sporting aptitude test also if sport is of interest. They will have a breakfast and after school club, will bring in wallington boys pupils for certain activities to have a small mix with older children so they say.

There is obviously no history to go on though and still hasn’t got planning permission for the permanent building which means the site may move locations . They will be in temporary accommodation for a year and a half which isn’t built yet either although I think can be knocked up pretty quickly. They will also travel offsite to do different activities. Not sure if there will be a kitchen onsite or a science lab in temp building.

Aswell as being under the same group as Wallington boys, Park hill junior and St Peters are also in the same trust. I have heard that the trust has ruffled a few feathers there, pushing the head teachers out and upsetting some parents with a lack of communication but I think they would probably just be trying to make improvements tbh and not sure how true it all is

Harris Purley seems to have come along way since it was Haling Manor and has pretty good attainment results. When I went there for a visit I was pleasantly surprised by the school and the children in a good way. There is a new head that started in September which can always change things though. I don’t know if anyone can comment on any differences with the new head? It does seem like a very strict school, not sure how happy children seemed to be there though

I did go to Warlingham open day but I don’t have too much to say about it really, reminded me of a traditional Surrey school like I went to as a child but nothing to write home about for me

I thought Thomas Moore desperately needed a refurb and the pupils seemed a little rowdy. There was a new leadership team who said things were on the up but to me they didn’t really say a lot, they just played a video with lots of pics of the kids having fun. The teachers in the classrooms did seem very happy and enthusiastic though

I thought Riddlesdown was excellent. My only issue was how big the school is but they have a number of collegiates to make it feel more like a small school for the children. However things like the canteen , the library and after school activities seemed to be shared by everyone so there can be some over crowding and difficulty getting onto teams I hear

Not sure if you are interested in Woodcote as a similar area...the children seemed very happy on our visit, again could do with a refurb

Not sure where you are in Croydon but my dd has got a place at greenshaw in carshalton which takes a proportion of its intake from 11+ passers. It's seen as a bit of a backup to the main grammars I think (we failed stage 2 so could not apply to the 2 girls grammars) I am hoping she will get chance to achieve as well as she can but without the grammar pressure. We loved harris Purley when we saw it but I have since had a change of heart and turned down our waiting list offer. It has had 3 heads in 3 years and their latest short report (published after I looked at them last year) seems very focused on behaviour and talks a lot about exclusions etc - although it still has an outstanding rating I didn't like the report and decided I didn't want her going there. We loved woodcote however catchment has shrunk this year and so we have no chance of a place (Well maybe by end of y7/8!)