Henrietta Barnett - does my child need to be a genius to get in?

[AlterEgoe]

I feel like I'm going slightly mad at the moment. I have a kid in year 5 and have a school "longlist" due to the fact that we don't have a good comp option in our catchment. She is mostly at the top of her class and has always been an advanced reader, and now her maths has caught up almost to the same level. Without wanting to sound delusional or arrogant or naive, we have signed her up to sit the HBS exam in September.

The HBS exam is now only 4 months away and I am getting nervous about it and I'm not even the one who will be sitting it ...I know I should be cool, and just be a grown up about it - and about the 11+ in general - but I am totally feeling like I can't gauge the level expected and that there is so much self-inflation out there it's impossible to get a read on how realistic a chance we have. I don't want to pressurize my child, but I don't want her to not give it her best shot... how to achieve that balance? Deep down I am paranoid that secretly that we might be totally kidding ourselves. Her teachers say great things about her but the school is not one that strokes the parents' ego... And yet all around me I have heard parents with kids of varied ability be all gung-ho and expound to me how "my kid is really bright, I bet she'll be able to get in anywhere when the time comes"... In my experience that is mostly not what ends up to be the case. I have had my daughter assessed and have been explained that she should be capable but that her nerves and exam technique are what could scupper her chances as you need to work fast and not get too ruffled by the pressure.

Am I being unrealistic about even giving it a shot? Or is it just imposter syndrome by proxy? I went to a top uni and always doubted myself... the real challenge is how to survive the next 6 months or so without letting the mind-games and arrogance of other parents leave us feeling insecure.

I suppose I am looking for reassurance that a normal, bright, precocious and relatively hard-working kid can get in, and that not all successful candidates are automata that work night and day and at grade 8 on 3 instruments...

Also - if anyone who has been through it and is riddled with self-doubt and guilt about the whole affair, then I'd love to hear from them!

Might not be that helpful, but I was accepted into the 6th form. I was bright, but not exceptional. No musical ability or any other skills. I went for a week but then decided to go back to my local school as it just didn’t feel that progressive. I wanted to study art, photography, literature etc, and they had classics and Latin etc.
I sometimes wonder if I made the right choice as it is known for being a brilliant school.
Good luck to your daughter!

Oh my goodness, I sat the test myself and boy is it hard! I ended up going to another school after passing their test and going on to Mansfield College, Oxford but HBS is well known for being one of the hardest schools to get into - it's crazy. My advice would be to try to minimise any fear or anxiety over the test as that can affect performance and instead, try to play it down with your DD.

I think its probably the hardest school in London to get into due to the sheer number of girls who apply. This makes it a bit of a lottery i.e you really have to perform well on the day as a mark or two will make all the difference. DD didn't even get through the first round and she is perfectly bright. However your DD should definitely have a go-there is nothing to lose and indeed less pressure as no-one expects a girl to get into HBS (and I know a few who eg got into SPGS but not HBS).

Thanks @Bumblealong1 and RolyRocks. I went to Cambridge after a disappointing 11+ so know what you're getting at...

I'm finding it hard to play down - rather I've erred on the side of being open and talking about it. And that has worked until recently. Now that I've actually signed her up, it looks more real! I have told her that whatever happens, we will figure something out.

She doesn’t need to be the cleverest but she needs to be super well prepared and to be one of the quickest and they need to practice practice and practice again. It’s a numbers game and first to the post. Almost all the girls will be smart but many will be prepped to the inch of their lives. Despite having really bright kids I couldn’t even face going down that route for mine and neither did most of my friends. It’s worth a shot, but be realistic, the competition is a league of its own

I think that is a brilliant assessment @Yvest of the madness. It's all about the prep and the speed. Sigh.

We were shocked by the level of competitiveness for these top schools. I knew my son was bright but during his group tuition we encountered children in an altogether different league and had to decide to plod on or work quickly and very hard to get to the same level. The prep is not for the faint hearted. In my opinion, it's not enough to be 'top table' and agree with yvest - it's all about first past the post.

Head over to the elevenplusexams forum.

All you can do is be fully aware of what is tested and do some decent preparation and manage expectations. Some people will do crazy preparation which is very controversial but only you can decider what you think is appropriate and reasonable prep.

Yes you need to be bright and yes you need to be well prepared, accurate and quick. Then you might get in and you might not.

It's important not to let it become the be all and end all. Be honest that most people don't get in and there is no shame in it. Make sure you have a back up plan an d your Dd knows there is one and everything will be okay.

And then you can just try. I think keep ing perspective is all important for yourself and DD....easier said than done but probably the best thing a parent can do for themselves and their child.

My only advice is to look carefully at any school beyond the results to the extra-curricular activities, the journey, the area of the pupils live for ease of meeting up, the vibe..

If all that checks out for you (and it's very personal), go for it. You have nothing to lose and lots to gain.

However do look at Plan B - the local options may not seem great on paper (league table?) but get wonderful results for the children that enter their school and are joyous places.

I've been told by a colleague whose daughter went there that the pupil-edited school magazine is called "Five A's and You're Out" - a pointed reference to the fact that any girl not obtaining 6 A's at GCSE is asked to leave. The same colleague felt that the teaching wasn't necessarily all that good, and the results / league table position were entirely due to selection on the way in combined with intense competition between the girls while there. The school told my colleague their daughter was "quite good" at her intended university subject and should apply for a Russell-group but non-oxbridge university. She ignored them, applied to oxbridge with little support from the school, was accepted and ultimately graduated with a first. So you have to ask - do the girls get there in spite of or because of the school?
That said, my impression is the school is less ruthless that its male equivalent QE Boys who are well known to cull over 20% of the year group irrespective of GCSE results. I wouldn't send my child to a school which puts league table position before the good of the children entrusted to its care.

Unfortunately I think HB is one of those ‘super selectives’ where being the cleverest or ‘top table’ at primary, just isn’t enough any more. The huge numbers of girls sitting are the reason for this. The first round, before you even get to the Maths & English papers, which is very much based on being very quick & accurate in NVR/VR has led many families to spending years practising the methods. For me, this is not really a test of natural academic ability. As said above, many families are not prepared to take on the almost change of daily family life that this involves. The equivalent boys school in the area, Queen Elizabeth’s boys School, dropped this first round requirement several years ago, instead focusing only on Maths & English ability, which some believe, has led to a change in the make up of the intake.

I think there are positives though. Yes, many girls sit but this needs to be put into perspective. As with QE boys, some will be using it as a mock test for Independent schools and have no intention of applying to the school. Many successful girls will achieve offers from other schools and will not take up a place at HB. There are always examples of the bright girl, who was not coached within an inch of her life, who made it through and got a place. You never know, your DD might be one of those. To give her any sort of fair chance, some prep will be needed for both rounds though. Good luck!

And once she gets there she will need to work really hard to maintain her position, potential grades etc...

All you can do is give it a go. Make sure she realises that the very fact you are entering her means you feel she is clever and that if she doesn’t get in it doesn’t mean she isn’t. Everyone who took the exam was clever. Make sure you prep. Advice on 11 plus forum.
Somebody has to get the places why not your dd
What are your other options?
Many schools are really quite good if you are in set 1 or2 and the fact you are an interested invested parent will be a big asset whatever school.

Have you got a tutor? You probably need to get one even if your daughter is naturally gifted because the maths questions cover all of primary curriculum but you'll sit it part way through Y6. Hop over to 11+ forum if you want to give yourself a scare as to what other parents are doing to prepare.

I did english and VR tutoring an hour a week from beginning of Y5 for QE entry. We did bond maths every day. This is considered very low level of tutoring. Like your daughter, he is naturally bright and he did get in comfortably. But he didn't do that well on maths. Even though he is great at maths and got 100% in his SATs. I probably should have tutored but I (mistakenly) thought he was so good, what was the point?

My take is: if your child was In a group of 10 what would their chances be of coming top in a test? I imagine she would gave a good enough chance from what you say.

Maybe a series of mock tests would help with her nerves?

BTW - QE don't cull a specific number of pupils. Like all schools, you have to reach a certain standard to be offered a level in a subject. So if you don't get the grades, most easily find a place at good schools near by.

@mellicauli - I am surprised that you say that QE Boys doesn't cull for 6th form. There are something like 40 fewer A Level places than GCSE places. People who have been through it told me that there is an internal exam (not GCSEs) and the school decide from that whether you can stay and do the subjects you want at A level.

Maybe your son is too new to the school (y7-9) or maybe he's such a high flier he doesn't know what happened to others during the transition.

^^ they all got As at GCSEs by the way so not reaching the standard is difficult to argue.

That’s not true. The school have space/ places for all the boys. They are told in year 10 when their internal exams are and what they need to achieve to get an A level offer. If they don’t meet it they have a further chance to achieve the marks. There isn’t a set number of boys that they take into the 6th form. It’s not for everybody and a fair few boys leave of their own accord, to go to Independent school or co Ed.

I have just google HB out of curiosity. It seems very hothouse.

I would sit her for about 5 competitive schools at 11 including those in the private secto who compete with and can exceed HB and tell her it doesn't matter at all which she gets in to and she will do fine whatever so she doesn't even know the significance of any particular school and doesn't know your preference. I would not have chosen a state school so my girls didn't try for HB but it is certainly worth a try if you are not wedded to private schools.

I've done this with what I consider my averagely bright DD but she was uber-well prepared, a past paper a day for the 10 weeks from the beginning of September to the exams in November. She became super-fast and accurate at everything and got offers, as well as a scholarship, from all her choices. She is a docile, compliant child (August born, I might add) and was happy to do it for a treat (like a bath bomb or a ribbon) every day. It would not have worked with any of my four other children. Horses for courses. Half the poor souls who are pushed into applying don't have a chance, many will be using the exam as prep for private, many parents are unrealistic about their children's ability and I'd avoid talking to other parents for the exam season.

Just googled QE Boys out of interest. They clearly have fewer boys in the sixth form as 181 boys did maths GCSE (normal admission 180) but only 143 leavers' destinations are shown for 2017, There are 153 leavers for 2016 so it doesn't look like a fixed number are asked to leave, but some clearly do.

My local comp has the same thing: 179 took GCSEs, 156 took a levels . I always take this "cull" stuff with a pinch of salt..the howl of the thwarted " tiger mum".

When we applied I emphasised the competitive nature to my son - I told him 9 out 10 people didn't get in but we wouldn't have a chance if we didn't try.

A comparison with a comp is not a valid comparison. QE boys is 100% selective on intake. The valid comparison would be with the top half of the top set of your local comp. And I think you'll find 100% of those kids stayed on for A level, whereas QE boys only manages to "retain" about 80%. Besides, the cull is well documented on many threads over many years, e.g.

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewtopic.php?t=39640

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/secondary/841536-Q-E-Boys-school-Barnet

Both my DDs got in straightaway. They are clever and were reasonably well prepped (by me). They are not geniuses.

Now they are at the top of the school, it’s clear to me that the girls do well because of their natural intelligence and parental support. We all find the school lacking in many ways, especially the teaching quality. Science is probably ok, but the language teaching is abysmal - I find myself continually correcting mistakes in spelling lists. Not really what you expect unfortunately. Most girls feel contempt rather than pride in their school, which is a shame.

@RaskolnikovsGarret That is eye-opening! ...And concerning...We are very into languages - do you really think the teaching is so poor in that area? So sad that they feel contempt. I got the impression that they were all quite proud of their school.

Can you elaborate in what way the teaching quality does not meet expectations?