New research says selective schools "make almost no difference"

[HPFA]

This story appeared in the Telegraph

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/03/23/grammar-schools-have-virtually-no-effect-genetics-determine/

and the Guardian

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/mar/23/selective-schools-make-no-difference-to-gcse-results-study-says

and for statistical geniuses the source:

www.nature.com/articles/s41539-018-0019-8

Selective schools not sure, isn't there evidence that in Kent/Bucks system the border pass/fail pupils may have been different if they sat 11+ on a different day or even afternoon instead of morning.
Bullying all schools have bullies from Eton/Winchester College to the local council estate school. Often it's the brightest students who get away with it.
We know a family who's DD was bullied in co-ed comprehensive, ss comprehensive and then expensive selective private, only when she left for one of the regions lesser thought of fe colleges, did she meet staff willing to sort the bullies out.
Any school which tells parents either in it's prospectus or face to face, we don't have bullies, IMHO should be avoided like the plague, because they do, but just ignore.

I think DS probably achieved less well at his grammar school than he would have done in a comprehensive.

UserX - where on earth did you get your interpretation of what I said from??!! I made it 100% clear in my post I do not believe in trying to conform to the behaviours of big groups of children. Bullying should be clamped down on so that people are less inclined to behave like a flock of sheep. And bullying definitely exists in grammar schools - I went to one. I have family members teaching in them. I would not go out of my way to send my children to a grammar school (in fact, I chose to live somewhere that has no grammar schools). I would go out of my way to send my children to a school with good pastoral support for students, though, as you just can't get on and build resilience and self-esteem in a bullying environment.

MrsPeaceGarden my past experience is not dissimilar to yours. The main difference being that I did go to a selective school and came out feeling stupid (despite reams of As, university place at Oxford) because I wasn't as clever as other people around me. Like you, I'm also in a job that is way beneath my capabilities because deep down I assume that other people are better than me and there is no point trying.

The conclusion I've drawn is that self belief and the much touted "resilience" are more important than the exam results you get or the school you go to!

Yes, but it's not just about bullying vs not bullying. While obviously you don't want all children to be conformist sheep, it takes a pretty strong character to say 'I don't care if everyone else thinks it's uncool to be clever and study, I'm going to do it anyway even if it means I only have a couple of friends'. Fine if you are a strong character. But if you're a bright kid who's easily influenced, then it's surely easier to work hard and achieve academically when you're in a school where lots of others (if not all) are doing the same thing and think that's the smart choice. That doesn't have to mean a selective school - but it does require a certain ethos.

Yes, VoiciLePort - I did say I thought it was a personality thing, although I think you would have to be exceptionally weak willed to stop working because some people think it's uncool, but nobody is teasing or bullying you about it. You wouldn't even survive in a grammar school if you could only work in an environment where everyone was an earnest workaholic. But yes, I think the ethos of a school can affect the easily led in particular.

There is something wrong with a school in which the ethos is that working hard and doing well academically is not to be encouraged! I've never been in a school with that attitude that does not have a bullying problem, tbh, although I can imagine it being more prevalent in a school where the children thought likely to do well academically have been removed entirely, as that is as clear a statement as you can possibly make that the children left behind are not really expected to achieve well academically, despite being told they have to study academic subjects... If you don't want people to behave like sheep and don't want the majority of children underperforming academically, then why would you send this message to the majority of children?

“That’s the legacy of a comprehensive education if you’re bright. “

MrsPeaceGarden, I am really sorry you felt as you did and do. But are you sure there isn’t a cause and effect mix up going on there? It is a very sweeping generalisation that this will be ‘your’ legacy if you are st a comp and bright, rather than ‘my ‘ legacy in those circumstances. Might you already have had some self esteem or local of confidence issues?

Also, things seem very different from a generation ago. And in different schools. It certainly cool to be clever and hardworking in the comps my Dc attend.

Anyway, I am glad your DS are thriving.

As with TammyWhyNot, in my DC's comp it is cool to be clever and there is very little bullying. I think these days it is much harder to generalise about state schools as they all seem to be so different. However the research is IMO undoubtedly true. Super selective private or state schools get amazing results because they are super selective to start with. Take any 11 year old pupil from a top private or state selective school (say Henrietta Barnett or SPGS) and I guarantee they would do well anywhere. Indeed take one from SPGS and put her in a comp and she would probably be even more of an Oxbridge certainty as her school would be taken into consideration.

RedSkyAtNight - you know I drafted a comment very similar to yours (about my own experience thinking I was stupid at a grammar school) earlier on today. My self-confidence took a massive knock ;-(. I moved into the grammar school system far enough into secondary school to be very behind in some subjects (even though I'd always been one of the bright ones in my previous school). I had just one teacher who helped me to catch up. The others really didn't give a damn.