Should I ask if DD can be moved down a set?

[TabbyTigger]

She comes home after maths lessons telling me she’s stupid and doesn’t understand, and says all the other children are cleverer than her. We’ve had many tears and had to spend hours (3 hours yesterday!) on homework. She’s not usually this insecure and stressed out, and the classes have recently changed (from 9 sets to I think 11) so I’m worried they’ve left her in the wrong set. I don’t think it helps that the girl next to her is an absolute maths whiz and very condescending when DD is a bit slower.
Should I speak to someone about moving her downs set? Or would that just be interfering?

I wouldn't ask for her to be moved down just like that.
Checking that she's coping fine and lacking in confidence is fine.

I come from the position of a friend told me her dd said she was in the bottom group of reading, and struggling in that. She was really worried. I did reading with that class and actually had her dd (hence her asking me) and knew that she was in the second group and towards the top of it.
I told her to go and talk to the teacher, who would be able to tell her how untrue it was. She did and came back as to how her dd had got that idea.

Thank you Witchend. I was thinking this (the new sets were only created at Christmas so it’s only been 3 weeks), but she spent so long on homework yesterday that it made me think maybe she really is struggling. I’ll definitely have to arrange a meeting with the teacher. She was always fine with maths before, so it just seems a bit of a coincidence that this massive breakdown in confidence has come when the sets were reshuffled.

I just wanted to say that I always felt like I was behind and struggling with maths at school, asfor some reason I was placed in the top set. It was only in year 10 when all the rest of my class had finished the GCSE syllabus and were moving on to prepare for a level that I was asked if I would consider moving down a set.

It made such a difference but I hadn't realised that I could do it! If I had known I could have moved down I would have chosen to do it much much sooner. The slightly slower pace and not having to watch all the really good mathematicians showing off made me much piper and more confident.

Piper??? Happier FGS!

My DD2 had exactly the same experience Antonia. We never gave it a moment’s thought that it was the right thing to do. She actually went into a group with the best teacher and she really picked up after that. She felt better able to cope and the pace of work suited her. I was certain she would not get a C originally but she achieved a B so we were delighted.

DD1 stayed in the top set but was always thinking she was not as good as many of the others. She wasn’t but they differentiated the work and the whizz girls moved ahead at a faster pace. It was a small school so the top set were not all gifted! She also had a good teacher and that’s what really matters. The quality of teaching really is crucial.

Thank Antonia and Bubbles. I’m definitely broaching it with the teacher.

She was always in top set but now the sets have been shuffled and her class has gone from 35 of them down to about 25, so I think the “bottom” 10 from the class have dropped down. She’s probably now the very bottom of the set, or should have gone down with/in place of one of the others. I know someone has to be bottom but I think some kids deal with it well - it looks like she might not be one of them. She also performs well in tests, which will be why she was kept up despite struggling with a lot of the tougher work.

It's worth knowing that this is an issue that mainly affects girls. Lack of confidence is a huge issue, and research also shows that girls have a tendency to underestimate their abilities in relation to their peers (imposter syndrome!). You say DD is doing well in tests so is in the right set for her ability. That she struggled with that homework and struggles with some of the tougher work is fine. Maths isn't supposed to be easy all the time, especially in top set if the teacher is doing their job properly.

Spending 3 hours on homework isn't necessarily the best course of action if she's stuck. Spending an hour on it, then asking the teacher for a bit more help could have saved the time. Girls with a tendency towards perfectionism find failing to do something or leaving something unfinished quite difficult to do.

You say that it doesn't help that she's sat next to a condescending maths whizz. A first solution rather than moving sets would be to move her next to a more supportive partner. This could be someone of a similar ability (I have two weaker girls in my top set who like working through things and asking for help together), or someone good at maths but helpful (another weaker girl sits next to one of the really bright ones who explains stuff to her).

Definitely approach the teacher, but not to request a set change in the first instance, but to discuss how your DD is feeling and asking about seating changes. It could be that your DD is really struggling and then a set change could be broached, but it could be just that she needs a bit more support, reassurance and better tactics for what to do when she doesn't understand something.

Like I said, it's worth knowing that this could be part of a nationally recognised issue with girls in STEM subjects, which contributes eventually to the gender pay gap.

Oh, l wish l could have done that. l went to a Grammar school, many moons ago, and l managed with everything except maths. lt may as well have been Ancient Greek, l just couldn't understand it. They had me in the top set, and l repeatedly asked to move down and was refused. The end result was that l took O level three times, and was ungraded every time. l think if l'd been allowed to do CSE l could at least have got a qualification.
Strangely enough, l ended up in a job where l compiled statistics every month, which l managed fine. lt was the other stuff l couldn't do, none of which l ever needed once l left school.
l hope they can sort things out for your daughter. lt can really affect your confidence.

Are you me, katseyes7? Sounds like my awful maths career at school too! I was determined my DDs were supported at maths and well taught. DD1 probably was near the bottom of top set but she found it a struggle being with the whizzy ones. It can sap your belief in yourself. Luckily she was the whizzy one at other subjects. Everything to be gained by speaking to the teacher though OP.

noble that’s all very interesting and useful, thank you! I (not to put her down) genuinely think she overperforms in tests - she always has done, it’s a bit odd. She’s a bizarrely good guesser/improviser, so she takes a shot at questions wih no idea what she’s doing and ends up getting them right (with no clue how). For example, she didn’t understand trigonometry until very recently but used to just take a guess and usually be very close or exactly right. She also absolutely can’t do long multiplication or long division (I’ve tried to teach her, all her teachers have tried, but she just can’t do it) - so she does chunking and the grid method instead. She’s definitely not mathsy, just somewhat logical, which is why she’s very good at sciences and languages, and can do well in maths tests. The three hour homework was a nightmare - I kept trying to tell her to stop and then she’d cry and get stressed out and wouldn’t leave it alone. She couldn’t bear to leave it unfinished.

The girl next to her definitely doesn’t help, you’re right, so maybe I’ll mention that to see if it changes anything before bringing up the possibility of moving classes.

Sorry about your stories katseyes and bubbles - I’m hoping this won’t happen to DD!!

I asked at the end of the summer term ( also for English and Humanities) school agreed DD is doing far better and is a million times happier at the top of set 2 rather than the bottom of set 1.

I would. Better to be top of a lower set than bottom of a top one. Sets often done on indicative grades which can be ridiculously high.

I asked to be moved down a maths set at school. Was the best thing I did. Went from understanding nothing until set to getting it totally in second set.

I think it depends on the child. Some perform better at the bottom of a set and others prefer to be at the top of a lower one. In terms of boys/ girls boys can suffer from lack of confidence too so it doesn't necessarily follow.

She needs to be in the right set for her, so talk to the school and get their perspective.

Boys can lack confidence too, but in maths it’s a recognised issue with girls. Look at this thread, it’s people posting about themselves or their DDs!

Overperforming in maths tests is a new one! By the time you get to KS4 it would be quite difficult to blag good marks!

Wish my mum had asked. I struggled and hated it.. dented my
Confidence and got a d at alevel. I am great at maths. I am a high earning city accountant now! Just didn't get on with the move and shitty high set teaching!

Do it! Wish my mum had.

I could not agree with Noble more.

Looking at what you say, your dd is an intuitive mathematician who does well in tests. She thinks logically and prefers methods where she can see how the maths works rather than just being told to use a method because it works. This is how I would describe a good mathematician.

One thing she could try is not simply pressing on, but walking away
and letting her subconscious work on it. It becomes easier every time you return

Lastly, Khan Academy has some nice videos for explaining the maths

Btw I was at one of the top 3 girls
Private schools in the uk... it can happen anywhere! My parents
Couldn't afford fees and coaching tutoring etc so who knows what is happening to others who can.

Look at this thread, it’s people posting about themselves or their DDs

But most of the people on MN are women at the risk of stating the obvious.....

The point there is that no one has mentioned a DS.

Thank you for all the advice! I’ve emailed her teacher outlining some of my concerns (low self esteem/homework struggle/test performance/girl next to her) so am just waiting for a reply.

I think the problem is that GCSE maths at this point relies partially on you learning/memorising methods and she struggles to do that, which is why maths doesn’t sit right with her. The girl next to her also told her she is going to start losing “working out” marks that come up later because she doesn’t know how she works things out (so writes very little down) or does it in a bizarre, convoluted way (that might not get her the marks). I don’t know if this is true so I have queried about the important of working out in the email.

And to add to the DD/DS debate - it is generally acknowledged that girls underestimate their abilities. In DS’s year 20 boys applied for Oxbridge and only 8 girls, but only 3 boys got in while 5 girls got in! And DH always talks about struggling to get women to apply for higher paid/powered jobs - he once reduced the salary of a job to see if that impacted it and women started applying. (He of course raised the salary after she got the job!). Just anecdotal, but I think studies have shown that, GENERALLY, men do estimate their abilities more highly than women.

I’d say both my DDs are more academic than DS was at their age but he certainly never angsted and worried in they way they do!