A Levels & EPQ

[extinctspecies]

Please tell me about the EPQ?

DS's school is strongly encouraging it, alongside 3 A-Levels.

However DS is not keen on it & says it's not recognised by Oxbridge, which is an option for him, so doesn't see the point ...

He is clever, but lazy (yes, I know that if he wants to do Oxbridge he needs to sharpen up, we are are working on that).

Interested to know others' experience of their DC doing EPQ. Did they get good grades and did you feel it was helpful with getting into their first-choice Uni?

His other subjects will probably be English Lit, History & Maths.

Thanks.

Our school starts with 4 A levels dropping to 3 subjects in year 13 (ie.they drop one) and does an EPQ in year 12. They have approximately 40 out of each cohort of 150 go onto Oxbridge, another 15 or so medics. EPQs are recognised by Oxbridge even if they don't form part of an offer and are a good way to demonstrate super curricular knowledge.

EPQs are a way to show initiative and creative, independent thought. Oxford & Cambridge are overwhelmed with candidates who are all predicted top grades. EPQs are a way for a pupil to distinguish themselves and can be helpful at the point of interview. If your ds genuinely does not feel enthusiastic about academic work then he should not consider Oxbridge.

Allthebest DS's school used to do that, but since the AS rules changed they no longer recommend it as you get nothing to show after the first year.

Mabel it is not that DS is not keen on academic work, rather that he tends to prioritise his sport (First team), hectic social life & girlfriend over it! He is very intellectually curious & able (scholarship).

I've read some of the other EPQ threads on here & seem to get the impression that they appeal more to girls than boys ....

I need to find out who told DS that Oxbridge don't recognise the EPQ. Because that's obviously not the case from what you both say.

A friend whose children are applying to universities told me that some places may not include it in the offer but 'expect you to have done an EPQ', so definitely worth checking.
And 'Oxbridge' is only 1/5 places on the form, so if other places expect one ...

DDs school offer the EPQ to those who want to go to a Russell Group University. The school sell it as enabling universities to distinguish between top students however I've been at university since September and the general consensus from my tutors is that subject specific work experience would be better use of a students time. Because every school has been pushing the EPQ so much over the last few years it isn't as valued as much as it used to be.

If your dc hasn't been able to get work experience or part time job in the field they want to study then I'd say its quite a valuable extra.

Thanks Reinette, useful feedback.

Although DS is probably going to read History at Uni. Not sure what sort of work experience he can get for that...

Our school still does the 4 for year 12 despite no AS to show for it for a number of reasons. Some take on subjects they have not done before e.g.. economics or politics and may not enjoy them, some cannot handle the step up in some of the subjects and therefore they still have a chance to drop something that doesn't suit them.

It may not be be school policy, but there is no reason they couldn't take the AS for the subject they are dropping at the end of the lower 6th.

EPQ, or the EE part of the IB, is a good way to demonstrate your interest in the potential Uni subject. So the potential engineering student does their EPQ in robotics, and the potential medic does their EE on pharmaceuticals.

An EPQ with an interesting and relevant title helps you to stand out from the thousands of others with identikit A levels.

Thanks. There are a lot of general posts on the benefits of the EPQ.

Anyone whose DC have been through the process and can share their experiences, good or bad?

DS is only just 16, and still has no idea what subject he may want to read at Uni.

DD2 submitted her three quarters completed EPQ as part of the "send us some marked work" request in advance of her Oxbridge interview - the interviewers went through it line by line, asking her to justify why she'd done x, and why did she come to y conclusion.

DD3 will be doing one (partly to pacify the teacher of the subject she's not picking for A level, to stop his sad faces at her ) combining her uni subject choice with her more unusual GCSE subject. Very competitive uni course, so anything which might give her an edge will be helpful, plus it's a great opportunity to do (as well as show) some independent research skills.

DD1's EPQ (back when they were relatively rare) was just another tick in the "why I love this subject" column.

There is some research going on at Southampton Uni that suggests that the EPQ has lasting positive effects on students' attainment. So the skills that they learn stay with them through their university study and they do better as a result. (Of course it may not be a causal link - it may just be that the students that successfully complete their EPQ are motivated and hard-working then and continue to be so.)
If your son really is lazy he probably won't do that well at it - doing a good project very much relies on a student being motivated. On the other hand he might find something that really interests him and really get into it. This d2ry7t303fmxh8.cloudfront.net/docs/default-source/default-document-library/epq2016.pdf?sfvrsn=2 gives some good examples of the range of projects you can do.

OK. If you get a poor mark in your EPQ does it go on your UCAS form anyway?

If you get a poor mark in your EPQ does it go on your UCAS form anyway?

Yes all marks should go on your UCAS form no matter how poor. Its an opportunity for students to reflect on their grade and learn from their mistakes.

Universities might ask about the lower grades and how the student responds will give a good insight into the character of the student and how determined they are to complete a degree.

A low grade alongside several higher grades doesn't mean a person is a poor candidate for a particular course. It might highlight areas that the student would benefit from extra support if its part of a specific qualification.

DS's school has offers the EPQ and since the recent introduction of the new linear 2 year course restricting students to 3 A levels choices it is suggesting it as a way to add enrichment to a students CV.

DD is at Cambridge reading Law, in year 13 she did her EPQ on the laws surrounding assisted suicide. Although Cambridge do not stipulate it as a requirement or include it on their offer they did discuss her EPQ at length during her interview as it was related to the course she wanted to study.

The EPQ requires independent study and research and as such I think it is viewed as a positive qualification.

Like @sassymuffin my DD1 was writing up her EPQ when interviewed at Cambridge. They asked her about her methodology and choices as part of the process - DD was making an artefact rather than writing an essay.

One of the main selling points of the EPQ is the research that is needed for it. Lots of qualifications at school are spoon-fed to students. EPQ is different and although I am not convinced it suits all students, am satisfied that it offers evidence of skills that will be needed at university.

Anecdotally, a number of years ago, one young man at school did an EPQ researching lunches and their nutritional content. He conducted lots of interviews with students (with their permission) including the same DD who was then in year 7. This young man missed his university offer by 2 grades. He had had a nightmare sixth form in terms of his family life so the fact he came so close was no small achievement. His excellent EPQ came to his rescue and he was offered a place on his chosen course immediately.

What safeguards are in place to ensure there isn't heavy parental involvement in the EPQ? Or is it just done on trust?

There are supervised planning sessions, assessment forms completed at various stages of the project and the student also writes a Report on the Project too and (at our school) has to give a public presentation and host a Q and A session as part of that presentation which is also assessed.

Our school also does the HPQ which is the gcse equivalent.

extinctspecies three of my DC have read or are reading History at Oxford and all did several different really interesting placements ahead of Y13. (They all also did an EPQ but none had any questions asked at interview on the EPQ at all). It just requires a little imagination to identify an interesting placement and then secure it. No doubt plenty of students don't do placements but they're there for the taking if you want them.

“Our school still does the 4 for year 12 despite no AS to show for it for a number of reasons. Some take on subjects they have not done before e.g.. economics or politics and may not enjoy them, some cannot handle the step up in some of the subjects and therefore they still have a chance to drop something that doesn't suit them.”

That is very sensible. A lot of students at DD’s school took psychology and have found that they hated it, DD included. As she started with 4 subjects she dropped it after AS level (they still did them at her school this year). Her friend who started with three doesn’t have this option, and is regretting it.

DD’s school doesn’t do EPQs. We found that the universities we looked at didn’t ask for them because they recognised that not all schools do them (all Russel Group BTW). They do something called enrichment instead. As DD wants to do medicine she uses the enrichment time to volunteer at a care home.

goodbyestranger one of DD’s friends has an offer to read history at Oxford. He hasn’t done an EPQ, doesn't have stellar GCSE grades or done any placements anywhere, done D of E, or have a part time job. He is just a history nerd and can bullshit about history all day. I have a suspicion that his offer is slightly contextual because of his postcode.

It is viewed as a positive qualification
Likely to be true for many university departments but that does not mean that it is the tipping point for offers. IMO there are benefits in going through the process but there are also benefits in spending the time doing lots of reading or equivalent around the potential degree subject, possibly doing an essay competition (especially if you do well) and making sure that A levels grades are best possible.

One DC went to a school where EPQs could be done but very much left to the students. A significant minority did not complete and many regretted starting the process because of all the boxes that needed to be ticked rather than simply doing research and writing an essay.

OP you say that your DS is intellectually curious so just ask him how he is going to demonstrate that to universities if not by the EPQ.

If he reads extensively in History and English and expresses some interesting thoughts on what he has read then I would not be worrying too much about the EPQ as he will have something to write about on his personal statement and potentially discuss at interviews.

Of course nobody can guarantee here that he won't lose out on an offer at some universities that may when he is applying be scoring in favour of an EPQ during the admissions process.

Lonicera it's not either/ or: going out and doing things of interest related to a subject merely demonstrates an interest in that subject, it doesn't preclude being a 'nerd'. (In fact I'm not sure what level of interest is required to qualify as a 'nerd' but I'd argue that you don't need to be a card carrying nerd to get an offer either, in that my DC aren't, at least not on my definition of 'nerd' :)).

Anyhow I didn't mention it because every successful applicant to Oxford needs to have done similar placements, but because OP implied you couldn't do any relevant placements for History, whereas there are heaps, actually.

I'd say the EPQ is ok but I'm fairly neutral about its value. So many of the points seem to come from a tick box exercise of submitting the various stages on time that getting an A doesn't require, and therefore doesn't demonstrate, particular academic talent (all my DC have got A, so that isn't sour grapes - they found it relatively tedious).

Also Lonicera the standard offer is AAA. Is the friend's offer lower than that or are you surprised at AAA?

He uses the words history nerd to describe himself goodbye. The point of my post is that he hasn't done anything extra curricular to gain a place at Oxford, other than be massively enthusiastic about the subject. He reads around his subject all the time and devours military history books the way I devour crime novels. He said that if he got an interview that he knew he had nailed it, and he did. He only got one A* at GCSE, the rest being As and Bs.

Not to belittle his achievement at all, but studying history for him would be the equivalent of DD studying for a degree in Harry Potter. That is how much he loves history.