Private school vs non-selective super state school - VERY LONG!

[Hotdrop1]

‘First world problem’ alert and also this situation is hypothetical as my DS hasn’t received offers from either of these types of school (yet – hopefully!). My issue is that when my one and only child was born I made a promise to myself that he would have a top-notch education i.e. private. This is based, not only on results, but also on the impression I have that kids from private schools seem to emerge with ‘polish’, confidence and a sense the world is there’s for the taking (in a positive way). On him starting school, I then became aware of really outstanding non-selective state secondary schools. He’s now in year 6 and I’ve applied for two of these. They’re both in the Sunday Times Top 100 state school list and our first choice of these is in the top 20. I’ve loved this school when I’ve been to see it. It seems to have all the passion and drive of a private school but there are no exams to get in and no fees! As well as these I’ve also applied for some carefully chosen private schools i.e. ones where the boys I met on open days were a real delight: bright, ambitious, funny, personable (not toffs and not snobs). The kids in our No.1 preferred super-state school were like this too though. There is every chance that my son won’t get into any of the preferred schools that we’ve applied for (private or state) that we’ve applied to but I’ve already started thinking (worrying) about what on earth I’d do if he got an offer from on of a super-state and from a private school. When I think about him going to a super-state, I feel slightly anxious because the outcomes I’m after (good results plus ‘polish’ etc) is potentially less guaranteed. It also makes me feel that I’m being a cheapskate with regard to my son’s education. When I think about him going to a private school, I feel anxious about the money involved and that I’m throwing away an opportunity for him to get a great education for free in the state system. On the money side of thing, sending him to private school will be a stretch. I’d have to think about money A LOT more, cutting back on some things that we currently enjoy. I may have do more work (my employer says he can give me more although I dislike my job). If we opted for the state school option, there would be no money worries and we could have a really comfortable life (but with potentially a constant niggle that I’ve back tracked on the promise I’d always made: that he would be privately educated). My question is: has anyone else faced this dilemma and if so what did you choose, were you pleased with your choice or did you regret it. All advice would be very gratefully received. I’m thinking about this now, as I don’t want to have to do it in a panic when the offers come out (should I be lucky enough to get them from these schools).

OP, to describe sending your child to a state school as being a cheapskate is frankly rather insulting to those who don’t have much choice.

Also league tables are not helpful, firstly it doesn’t tell you about fit for your child and secondly not all schools elect to be in the tables.

Underneath: you disagree that state schools turn out well educated children with lists of A* exams?

It is a matter of simple fact.

"being able to mix with kids from all walks of life will stand to them later in life"

And you seriously think this is going to happen in a super selective grammar?

And of course private schools have better extra curricular activities and a wider range of non core subjects, ffs! They have lots more money!!!!!!

They have lots more money!!!!!!.
That is a tautological point. The question is what is the best use of money for a DC's education when the extra cost required for a good private school makes a dent on family life.

Obviously it depends on a DC's likes, personality and whether the academics and extras at a private school provides a package that best suits them in the context of parents' working hours etc. I personally think that in most cases if the private education comes at a price of parents working all hours in jobs they don't like and don't spend much time with their DCs it is not worth it.

Re 'polish' IME an introverted MC DC from a typical good private schools is much more likely to be at ease and make an effort talking to relative strangers compared to an introverted MC DC from a typical state schools. Ditto for confidence in stepping forwards in new situations. Ditto for engaging in more extracurricular experiences when there is no obvious talent or enthusiasm or lots of parental micromanaging extracurricular activities.

@BertrandRussell - I've been very pleasantly surprised at the great ethnic and social backgrounds of the kids in my DC's grammar.
It is turning my child into a much more aware child. There are definitely no top of the range iPhones or an undue focus on possessions or wealth.

Revamped your promise to: I promise I will ensure that you have the best education I can arrange for you.

Then look at the offers you get and work out which school suits him best, and offers the best chance of success. A good state school is not worse than private just for being state.

Is it just me that sees 'feeling the world's your oyster' as just a different way of writing 'arrogant insufferable know it all'?

"Is it just me that sees 'feeling the world's your oyster' as just a different way of writing 'arrogant insufferable know it all'?"
Its not a phrase Id personally use but I understand what SoddingSoda is trying to say. Its inevitable that many children in the independent sector will widely travelled and been exposed to a myriad of extracurricular opportunities (obviously in both cases at some independent schools more than others). I was recently through work involved in a local state comprehensive school and 1. I was shocked by how few extra curricular activities there were, and those that there were were mainly sport, secondly I watched a form teacher try and persuade her yr 10 class to participate in some activities being offered by various organisations during half term none were interested. Talking to the children confidence or lack of it i.e. going to an unknown environment was definitely one of the reasons why no wanted to know.

As I said previously I have experience of both sectors. Do not assume state schools are worse than indies and do not assume indies will be miles better than state. There are all standards in both sectors. Go do your research OP, don't be lazy and ask Mnetters instead. If your money is tight, be very careful what you sign up to.

PWP is correct, some indies are not in league tables (tends to be the smaller ones) but of course all state schools are as, like the S Times table, they are compiled from Dept of Educ data.

DD’s State school isn’t in for example the Times Parent Power tables as it elected not to this year but got 90% 7/8/9 in Maths and English. All State schools will be in the Compare Schools Government tool, but those stats only give part of the picture. It also depends what you ‘want’ to see in the stats, I had one parent horrified that DD’s school had less than 80% taking separate sciences, another school it was 99%. However at the school with 100% it was compulsory which didn’t suit all DCs, in DD’s school it was an option with no quotas on max numbers doing triple science, in others only invited/upto a quota can do triple science and there isn’t much choice. The data doesn’t tell you the story behind it and some schools will push DCs down paths that help their data sometimes at the detriment to those DCs.

"DD’s State school isn’t in for example the Times Parent Power tables as it elected not to this year but got 90% 7/8/9 in Maths and English"

As I would expect from a selective school.

League tables etc are totally meaningless. Years ago I read an article about SPS which that year was top of the league table, the article praised the school in general but also pointed out that if you very carefully select some of the very brightest and the best boys all with mega pushy parents provide small classes, dedicated well resourced teachers, amazing facilities and lets not forget chuck them out if they fail to perform if you weren't at the very least consistently in the top ten nationally, then something has gone very wrong,
"some indies are not in league tables (tends to be the smaller ones)"
I think Astronotus you'll find that many of the very top independent schools also try to avoid league tables. I sometimes see X school say they are now 29th in the league table form 59th but the most selective independent schools aren't in the table.

It's worth warning that there are no guarantees in the independent sector. Not every independent school offers a top-notch education, and at the cheaper end there can often be practices, such as using unqualified staff, that are at least openly questioned and rather less acceptable in the state sector. Also in the private sector schools can go out of business and have to close in a matter of weeks, leaving kids without a school place. IME independent schools aren't too keen to open up about their financial health.

I went to one of these types of school. It was a tiny private girls' school with shockingly inadequate science teaching even for the 1980s. It folded just as I finished my O-levels; I was one of the lucky ones.

As the state school is top 20 but non selective I'd be very surprised if it wasn't a hot house environment full of middle class kids from leafy green areas whose parents will be buying tutors.

I actually think the private schools could be a lot less pressured and won't be any worse and giving a range of DC to mix with than the state.

You mention money is a bit of a worry with Private. How much of a worry? I wonder if the best compromise could be finding a Grammar school or less pressured excellent State school and saving the money you would have spent on fees to pay off DCs student loan and give £200k for / towards a house?

The flip side is that I think there are things Independent schools do which State schools can rarely match such as the music / drama / sport / extra curricular, links with employers. Plus the nice feeling of being a valued customer.

I think your promise to yourself of giving a private education is irrelevant, picking the right school isn't.

Hi everyone

Thanks for all the advice. Just for the record, for those saying 'no mention of the your child', the school choices have all been made by both my son and myself and all are places that we have both loved and felt he would fit it well at.

The idea of going for the state first and then hopping to private later if we're not happy appeals (he's on the shortlist for a scholarship (non-academic) at our number 1 choice state so maybe has a better than average chance of getting in - although I feel like I'm tempting fate by writing that). The idea of school fees going up makes my stomach flip (which isn't a good sign) but that might be because I'm pretty crappy with money. If I get a grip more on the financial side I should be able to afford it.

Good points about saving the money to do all the cultural things that would provide 'polish' outside of school.

Anyway, thanks for the advice everyone. It's been really helpful.

Save your money so he is debt free after university. Or use some of it to go on amazing holidays so you have loads of memories and widen his horizons. If you can give him s deposit for a house in the future, even better.

I faced this dilemma (a state school with excellent results and inspection reports versus a number of independent schools). We chose the independent schools for my 3 kids. We regret it big time.

It rather depends on the independent schools but we haven't found a single one (out of the seven or eight in our area) that really warranted paying the money for our kids.

Like I said - it depends on the particular schools in your area.

Hi EtTuBrute. That's really interesting. What makes you think that the independent schools haven't been worth the money?

Hi hotdrop - I emphasise that it is only our personal experience but we ultimately had three kids each at different independent schools and none of them did the job of the state school (which we eventually moved one of our kids to and it was an eye-opener).

The Inde schools were good on paper - good results, one GDST etc. My eldest daughter completed her GCSEs with some A* grades but they were in the subjects that I tutored myself. She got lower grades (Cs) in the subjects I could not tutor. She was definitely capable of better. The effort I put in to make up for the poor teaching and planning was large.

When I met with the various heads we had some interesting "chats" about teachers that were not qualified (that took me a while to figure out) and some poor planning (changing English Lit texts over a summer hols after one of my kids had studied the original texts during the hols... sigh), and teacher turnover.

That said, the state school was easier to call to account (provided we are sympathetic to their priorities and challenges) and the exam results were about the same with less tutoring on my part. My son at the state school also has more of that sharp elbow that I am sure will serve him well in life.

Just my experience - I share it for interest and don't think it necessarily extrapolates.

As EtTu has pointed out independent schools are no guarantee of high quality teaching. I've experience of state and independent and in all the schools I've known there are exceptional teachers and mediocre ones. I wouldn't choose independent on the basis of expecting better teaching or results. Indy school results reflect the selective in-take and then parents tutor on top to ensure best results possible.

My son was offered top independent schools places here last year. We had a poor Prep school experience from which we escaped after a couple of years into a lovely primary. Oh what a difference, great care and he learnt far more in core subjects.

So, we were lucky enough to be offered our son’s state secondary school of choice. He chose state over a place at a top UK independent school. I did feel conflicted at the time but no regrets whatsoever.

OP, private is brilliant if students get top grades, all round experience, can get into top unis and be f you can afford it.

State is great backup, but again if they achieve top grades and send lots of kids to top unis - ergo do they gain brilliant GCSE and A Level grades.

I have not read the whole thread, I have DC1 in a selective London independent (managed a scholarship) and DC2 in outstanding co Ed state comprehensive. If anything The teaching is possibly better in the latter, but DC2 is in top sets for everything and is more self motivated and disciplined than DC1. I reckon that any bright child with a supporting family will do well in both types of schools. I have in mind so many friends from our prep and also colleagues that cannot really afford secondary independent (and who can? They are ridiculously expensive now) but are nevertheless deciding to send their kids there and are always stressed about money.

I think you should start with the great state school. The way that wealth has become distributed in the world, coupled with the massive increases in independent school fees, means that the type of people now attending independent schools are very different from those of 30 or 40 years ago. Children are collected from their day schools here in south London by their chauffeurs. I would hate for you to feel, having paid the enormous fees required for an independent school place, that you were letting your son down by not providing all the other 'extras' of which his 'peers' would be in receipt.