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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Academy Secondary school - Appeals Advice - Governor's Statement

6 replies

Jax57 · 19/11/2017 14:00

Hi all - would welcome constructive advice regarding the Governor's statement and the type of questions I should be asking them at panel or before...AND A HUGE THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO READS THIS AND COMMENTS! I hope that these queries may help others too!

  1. PAN 240 current Yr 7 at 240, current yr 8 at 239 (but 2 appeals won in 2016 out of 12) and this does not reflect in the numbers?? 236 in current yr 11 - total including 6th form is 1595
  2. Criteria is LAC - 10, SEN - 0, Siblings - 49 ( 13 live outside distance given on NOD of 1.3), staff - 6 (but they have confirm 4 due to 2 yr rule and 1 given for skills shortage so shortfall of 1?) therefore only 175 places available under criteria for my daughter to apply under. Can I state that while admission criteria is lawful, not all schools place sibling priority above proximity and it disadvantages students with no siblings and if a teacher needs to be replaced during the school year in a skills shortage and current year year is full an additional place would be found for this employee?
  3. As an Academy they do not need a net capacity but in their response they have given details of Net capacity Assessment undertaken by LA in 2006 at 1642. They claim it 'supposedly relates to teaching space' but this calculation done by LA is misleading because it includes data relating to essential 6th form self study and common room area which 'cannot be used for teaching or by the main school. Is this true? These areas are often used as a teaching space or rehearsal space/performance space in my school...
  4. Additional areas in school provide 400m2 less than is given by DfE guidelines without consideration for 14-19 agenda. But as these KS are subject to different size groups dependent on option choices can a designated floor area be defined as such?
  5. They have been approached to possibly expand to 9FE but this is dependent on capital expenditure/new build but I am appealing as a sole appellant not in a group...
  6. Net capacity highlights shortfall in general classrooms, 19 being below DfE minimum approved size of 49m2 (NUT states there is no minimum size for classrooms?) posing problems for 'large classes' (31) and/or a TA.
  7. The above also poses a problem for setting by ability at KS3. (Would this not lead to different size classes, smaller low ability groups and larger, over 30 in size for top set etc - should I ask (or can I ask) for details of how the numbers work out in setting for core subjects to establish if any group over 30? Therefore there must be some flexibility in class size if students progress or regress during year? This is a pointed paragraph relating to the notion of a 'group' enough to furnish another form (ie 9FE) but as I am only asking for an additional place for my daughter is this irrelevant - or do I need to address as I stated by asking for breakdown of current 8FE in ability sets for core subjects?
  8. 'Any appeal that is allowed will significantly enlarge already large class sizes. The teaching groups for the majority of subjects are 30 students'. So I assume from that statement to add an additional student (3.3%) is not efficient use of resources when if using their behaviour policy and a student is sent out they are sent out to another teaching room and thereby increasing that classroom size on a daily basis and fitting an extra child behind desks.
  9. Limiting class size in primary school is a government imperative - but not an imperative in secondary school? Adding a student to a class full at its published PAN (30 students) is harmful to the education of students by -
  • overcrowding can lead to stress and make classes harder to manage - shouldn't teachers be able to manage challenging behaviour and stress as part of PGCE training - do I at panel mention stress and anxiety caused to daughter if not admitted?
  • time teacher can devote to each student (Teaching and Learning policies advocate group work, peer teaching/assessment, independent learning and personalised learning ie PLCs in 2020 Review)
  • teacher workload assessment - again coursework no longer part of most academic exams etc, peer marking and assessment, PLCs etc
-flexibility of school to accommodate students with SEN in smaller groups will lessen or disappear (SEN provision is to encourage independent working or specialist teaching outside of classroom to support SEN students and they will be funded as necessary through EHCPs)
  • greater sharing of important equipment - but sells itself as a leader in STEM for girls
  • schools are expected to work towards challenging targets at KS3/GCSE and this is made harder by increased numbers - already established taught in ability groups of varying class size so probably few subjects have classes of 30 or above...
10) Parents chose school because of 240 and have a reasonable expectation to expect their daughters to be taught in groups of no more than 30? 11) Fair Access Protocol by LA means they can be directed to take children in year - can this be proof that additional students can be considered over PAN? 12) Encouraging panel to find that the school will be prejudiced by taking an additional student because the current situation is proving quite a challenge to manage - good school leadership and commitment from staff and students who actively engage in their learning will help to ease this situation?

Any suggestions of questions over an above my initial responses are extremely welcome - and again I thank anyone and everyone for taking the time to read this Grin

OP posts:
admission · 19/11/2017 20:50

Most of what is being said is typical of most appeal documents from a school.

  1. A PAN of 240 indicates a maximum of 1200 in years 7 to 11. Net capacity as quoted as 1642 would allow for 442 in sixth form, when it more likely to be in the region of 300. Whilst year 7 has 240 and therefore school can say they are full in the year group, they are cannot argue that they are up to net capacity whereas you can argue that the school is currently 47 below net capacity, so to say the school is desperately full is not sustainable.
  2. The admission criteria is typical, is perfectly legal and as such you will not gain anything by arguing that you are in any way being disadvantaged. As you are not applying at a normal point of entry, it is irrelevant anyway. You are not being given a place because the year group is at PAN.
  3. The school can say anything they want about the self study and common room area but it is not relevant when they are not at or above the net capacity of the school.
  4. Do not understand their argument, the school have got what they got and moaning about what they have not got is irrelevant.
  5. Again not relevant, the appeal is based on what the situation is now, not what it might or might not be in the future
  6. There are generally agreed sizes for classrooms but there is no minimum or maximum size for a class of 30. 49m2 is on the smaller size but the question to ask is what are the sizes of the 19 which are undersized. I would suspect that most are above 45m2. Many secondary schools operate top sets with 32 or 33 in the class in rooms of 49m2
  7. It would normally be a question panels will ask about how they set for maths and english and what the set sizes are. Typically they can be 32 / 33 in top set down to 15 in bottom sets. It is for the school to decide how to set but what you need to ask is whether they are actually setting in 8 groups. It is quite normal for english and maths to be set for say 10 groups not the 8 which are the pastoral groups.
  8. Significantly enlarge already large class size! This is just the school throwing in anything they think of. Increasing from 30 to 31 is not going to make any difference in a normal class.
  9. If they really are quoting limiting class size in primaries, then they are clutching at straws. The reasons quoted are very much standard items which are put into any appeal and panel members will have seen them many times before.
  10. Parents can have any expectation they want over class size but again not relevant to any appeal.
  11. FAP does mean they might be expected to take pupils mid year but that is the same for any school in an area with few available places. It might be worth asking the question how many have been admitted under FAP in the last 12 months. I guess the answer might well be 0. If they have then there is always a reasonable question by you to the panel as to why this happened but then not been allowed in your case.
  12. Current situation is proving quite a challenge- yes this is the world we live in and your school is no different from others, is my reaction to that statement.

I would not spend too much time trying to out think the schools case, concentrate on your own case and just look to nibble away at the idea that the school have a strong case by asking appropriate questions. It is not a particularly strong case but it will probably be enough to get over the line in showing prejudice to the school which is why your case needs to be stronger than theirs.

Jax57 · 19/11/2017 21:04

Thanks so much Admissions-is it really appreciated. Can I ask you if it would be appropriate for me to ask School for class sizes of English/Maths in KS3? This as suggested could confirm larger class sizes...

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 19/11/2017 21:44

My personal view is that when a school throws this much at a case, particularly when some of the points are obviously weak, it usually means they are trying to cover up the fact they don't have a strong case. As Admission says, this is a pretty standard case (albeit a bit over the top in some areas) so you have a reasonable chance of winning providing you can make a decent case as to why your child needs to go to this school.

Nothing wrong with asking for class sizes. I would always ask any question where you think the information you get might help you. If it doesn't help you, don't mention it in the appeal. But much better to find out before the hearing than to ask a question blind and find that the answer is unhelpful.

Jax57 · 19/11/2017 22:26

Again, many thanks for your advice! Always appreciated - hope our case stands up against them, thank you x

OP posts:
PanelChair · 20/11/2017 09:13

I can't add much to what admission and prh have said.

I'd be wary, though, of concentrating solely on dissecting the school's case. It does sound rather hyped-up in places, but don't get drawn into that by questioning (for example) what happens when an unruly pupil gets sent out of class, because admission arrangements aren't based on dealing with discipline incidents. You could, though, ask what evidence they have of accidents caused by the supposed overcrowding (usually, the answer turns out to be none).

You need also to bolster your own case by identifying why this is the best school for your child and why they'll be disadvantaged if they don't have a place.

Jax57 · 20/11/2017 11:43

I have stated how the preferred school has a two week timetable that will help my dd regarding her dyslexic traits and subjects she does well in with letters from music teacher etc. I have written about how their approach to GCSEs (choosing in yr 9 rather than 8) will allow her to develop her knowledge and understanding of STEM subjects in particular that they focus on so she can decide with confidence her future pathway. The school has a dedicated careers academy to engage the girls in the realism of work and university. I have also mentioned how peer support is important to help her thrive and progress-backed by research the preferred school head took part in via ULC. How she had changed from independent traveller to dependency on me to take and pick up from school due to rival academies encountering each other in the streets and causing her anxiety. Her illness and school refusal manifesting itself since she began secondary school this term. So have real concerns regarding possible ENSR and mental health implications at such a transition which is not like her at all ( letters from her of primary confirming her normal demeanour rather than what she is experiencing now). She is young carer to brother, lost paternal grandmother in March, maternal grandparents live local to preferred school are unwell and I care for them so as only student from primary school to go to allocated school (which is rated outstanding compared to preferred school which is good) so she herself has no support network within school to assist on a daily basis.
Have only praised allocated school for trying to help but just want dd to be happy, therefore learn and progress and not develop further EBSR. Anything else I could add that will make our case stronger against LA I would like to know? Thank you all for your input and help this far!

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