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Secondary education

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50% cap on faith admissions - time to write to your MP if you think it should stay?

72 replies

notjustbaconbutties · 18/11/2017 09:50

There have been loads of threads in the past about the 50% cap on faith-based admissions, which has applied to all the new faith academies and free schools established since 2010. If you're not familiar with it then there's a good Wikipedia article here which gives a lot of background: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_50%25_Rule

Theresa May's manifesto said that she would ignore the responses to the Schools That Work for Everyone consultation and remove the cap, but it's all gone very quiet since she was elected(ish).

A decision is expected soon, and a cross-party group of MPs has started an Early Day Motion (which is a sort of petition for MPs) to say it should be kept. MPs need to be prodded to sign EDMs by their constituents, so if you feel strongly on this, now is a good time to write to them. If you don't have time to write your own letter then the Accord Coalition (campaign group) has made it easy by setting up a template letter: accordcoalition.org.uk/2017/11/10/mps-urge-government-not-to-jettison-anti-discrimination-cap-at-faith-schools/.

Either way it's going to be really interesting to see how the Government proceeds on this, because there is pretty good evidence that the cap is doing the job it was intended to do, and is popular with the vast majority parents. (I know many people out there think it should go further and ban faith-based admissions altogether, but if even this small and unprecedented step in the right direction can't survive a change in government there's little hope for further reform in future).

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IrenetheQuaint · 19/11/2017 20:40

If this change went ahead, would it apply to existing faith free schools, or only to new ones?

notjustbaconbutties · 19/11/2017 20:44

If this change went ahead, would it apply to existing faith free schools, or only to new ones?

Don't know about that. They would have to change all the funding agreements for the existing faith free schools, because that is where it is stipulated (as well as in the admissions code).

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notjustbaconbutties · 19/11/2017 20:59

Problem with 50:50 faith schools is you end up having twice as many faith schools and less non-faith schools

No you don't, because it's not as well planned as that. The religious authorities will establish as many schools as they can get support for and manage - that is a large but finite number. It doesn't double just because they're not all filled with practising Christians.

The Government wants the religious authorities to establish as many free schools as possible because there is a shortage of reliable sponsors. Nobody is looking at the cultural make-up of each local population and thinking "well actually most people round there aren't practising Christians so let's turn down this faith school proposal and wait for someone to propose a community school instead". The reality is that there just aren't enough community sponsors. So without the 50% Rule people will still get the faith schools, but they will be harder to access.

I sympathise with your personal situation, but the reality is that you're in a tiny minority - most people in your position, including very many atheists, would have taken the place at the 50:50 school, so long as it was a "good" school, and they would be happier to take it knowing that they were going to be in a large minority rather than a small one. If more people took a stand as you did then things would change faster in the direction of 100% community schools, but that's not what is happening.

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Julie8008 · 19/11/2017 21:11

You have partly convinced me notjustbaconbutties, I will think more about your comments.

On the flip side (I know it would never happen), it would be interesting to have an atheist non-faith school, were 50% were selected on the basis of having no faith, and see how many religious people where happy to send their children there.

notjustbaconbutties · 19/11/2017 21:24

Well you wouldn't be the first to suggest that but it's not a legal possibility.

There are certainly community free schools that have been set up by people who have been motivated by frustration at the proliferation of faith schools in their area, but the one I know of that tried to designate only non-faith primaries as feeder schools, with no other justification than they were non-faith, got shot down by the adjudicator. Community has to mean the whole community, including those with faith. Two wrongs don't make a right etc etc.

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notjustbaconbutties · 19/11/2017 21:35

Here's one more thing to hopefully convince you Julie - while the cap is in place there are 0 Catholic free schools, but if it lifted the Catholic Education service have plans for up to 40.

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Julie8008 · 19/11/2017 21:44

lol notjustbaconbutties, that might just convince me. Thanks

Ta1kinPeace · 19/11/2017 21:47

I'd be happiest if all parental faith selection was abolished in schools
as it is just covert exclusion of "undesirables"
but a 50% limit is better than nothing

nocampinghere · 20/11/2017 08:02

I think you should either allow religious schools, or not at all.
The 50% thing is nonsense and will push those who don't want the faith school INTO the faith school.
Why on earth you'd want your child to go to a religious school if you are not of that religion i genuninely don't know!

I do think the CofE register at services etc.. is a nonsense and just selection of committed parents.

By the way most religious schools (Catholic anyway) have to finance 10% of the school budget themselves via parent contribution/parish support. This is not insignificant - how would this be funded for the other 50%? And probably helps to explain why faith schools still exist, what govt would lose this funding especially at the moment?

GreenPurpleRed · 20/11/2017 08:10

Agree with @nocamping. Why would you want to send your dc to a faith school if you aren't?

Pick another school, simple.

notjustbaconbutties · 20/11/2017 08:29

The 50% thing .. will push those who don't want the faith school INTO the faith school

No it won't. See answers to Julie8008 above.

Why on earth you'd want your child to go to a religious school if you are not of that religion i genuninely don't know!
a whole myriad of reasons ...

  • It's the only school in the area.
  • It's the only good school in the area
  • It's your closest school, where all the local families want to go
  • It's the school you went to when you grew up in this area and you can't understand why it's suddenly become so "exclusive"
  • You're a churchgoer but just don't go to church regularly enough to qualify for a place under the faith criteria
  • You're a traditionalist/agnostic and you want your kids to learn about their family's religious background even though you don't practice at home
  • You went to a faith school yourself, came out the other end as a critical thinker and have confidence your own children will do the same
  • You don't like being excluded from your local school and want to challenge the system
  • You think the children of-the-faith will benefit from mixing with children like yours who are from a different background
  • You like the uniform, head, teachers, facilities, specialism etc etc.

And probably many more. The fact is that there are far more faith school places in this country than there are families who are actually practising a religion.

As I said to Julie above, these schools are coming anyway, so if they're coming let's make sure they're at least 50:50.

And if the rule goes there will immediately be a rush of new applications from the Catholic and Jewish communities, so then there will be even more faith schools created.

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notjustbaconbutties · 20/11/2017 08:35

By the way most religious schools (Catholic anyway) have to finance 10% of the school budget themselves via parent contribution/parish support. This is not insignificant

Nope. VA schools have to pay 10% of capital costs only - not running costs. Nationally that works out at about £30 - £40 per family. Many VA schools cover this by being part of a maintenance scheme which they ask families to 'voluntarily' contribute to - about £30 - £40 per year. If non-faith families are at the schoo then they are asked for the same contribution. It is not generally covered by "the church", although the schemes may at least distribute funds from wealthier areas where donations are more forthcoming to poorer areas where they're not.

But all that applies to VA schools, not free schools which are fully funded by the state. The 50% rule only applies to free schools.

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Changebagsandgladrags · 20/11/2017 08:42

Our Catholic high school has as it's admissions criteria 'baptised catholic'. No actual church attendance is necessary. So if people are that desperate to send their kids there then surely they can just baptise them? If you want a Catholic education then surely you want in on the faith? I wouldn't put my kids names down for a Jewish or Muslim school as they are not of that faith and wouldn't shout about it to get them in.

Crumbs1 · 20/11/2017 08:49

The thing is many non religious parents choose a faith school because it is ‘good’. It is good because it is a self selecting cohort where parents have to make the effort to register their children outside the usual allocation process. These are parents who care about education and want to put the effort in. They are willing to pay to transport their children. They like the generally quite clear behaviour framework and culture.
Faith and church attendance is mainly middle class or aspiring working class. In Catholic schools there are many immigrant families -Polish, Indian, Filipino. They are in the UK because they wanted a better life and are absolutely committed to improving the lives of their children through education. It is these parents that make them better schools.
Catholic schools tend to be very inclusive of heritage and disabilities so are a lovely place to help children grow into tolerant and compassionate adults.

Filling a school with entitled, it’s not fair, I don’t like the uniform, was this teacher unreasonable, my poor child, type parents would pull it down and it would cease to be a good school.

nocampinghere · 20/11/2017 09:03

In Catholic schools there are many immigrant families -Polish, Indian, Filipino. They are in the UK because they wanted a better life and are absolutely committed to improving the lives of their children through education. It is these parents that make them better schools.

this is my experience of catholic schools too (mine and my dcs). Not just middle class pushy parents. ime a baptism certificate is enough for most Catholic parish priests to sign the school form. Then it comes down to postcode. It seems to be the CofE churches offering school places via church attendance / parish involvement.

Lotsofsighing · 20/11/2017 10:47

'Pick another school, simple'.

Oh that it were simple.

Imagine a town with east and west sides. A family of no faith lives in the east of the city, where there's a Catholic school. Catholic family lives in the west where there's a community school.

Situation 1. The Catholic school is outstanding, gets great results, great facilities etc. The community school in the west of the city is terrible, ten heads in ten years, no good teachers, behaviour issues etc etc.
The Catholic family gets the Catholic school because despite living the other side of the city, they get priority. The non-Catholic family has to trudge past an excellent school to travel further to a crap one.

Situation 2. The Catholic school is rubbish, nobody wants to go there. The community school in the west is wonderful, outstanding blah di blah. The Catholic family put their Catholicism aside to attend their nearby excellent school, which they can do because distance is the relevant criteria. It is oversubscribed with people who live to the west of the city and so the non-Catholic family on the east have to go to a school that's not only crap, but of a religion that they don't follow.

In this particular simplified situation the Catholic family always get the good school despite them both being state funded.

As you can probably tell I'm pretty anti faith schools and can't really understand why anybody thinks they're acceptable (I think the hospital analogy always works well here). However, I can see that we're not going to get rid of them so at the very least I'd like the 50% cap to remain.

And this Catholic Church business of saying that Catholic pupils will be turned away 'because of their Catholicism' is a downright lie. Nobody will be turned away for being Catholic, 50% will be admitted without using faith as a criteria. They might all be Catholic anyway.

Can someone tell me what criteria siblings come under? Ie if you get a Catholic 50% place, then does the following sibling count as a Catholic or fall under the 'other' thereby increasing the Catholic pot.

notjustbaconbutties · 20/11/2017 11:32

Our Catholic high school has as it's admissions criteria 'baptised catholic'. No actual church attendance is necessary. So if people are that desperate to send their kids there then surely they can just baptise them?

Yes, in some areas the admissions criteria are baptism only. However church attendance criteria are added in areas where schools that are very oversubscribed want to select from within the Catholic community. They don't just want any Catholics, they want the ones that can jump through the most hoops. There are obviously extreme examples of that like the Oratory, but in between there is a whole spectrum of increasingly stringent criteria. So if you're basing you opinion just on what happens in your local area, then you need to consider the bigger picture.

A lot of Church of England schools don't use baptism as a criteria because to be baptised you have to make a statement of faith, and in many cases that would be untruthful. Parents shouldn't have to lie to get their kids into their local school.

The thing is many non religious parents choose a faith school because it is ‘good’.

Of course they do. But they shouldn't have to lie about their beliefs in order to do it.

It is good because it is a self selecting cohort where parents have to make the effort to register their children outside the usual allocation process.

Yes, they are selective. However there are still other legal ways of being selective that don't involve religion. Why should religious people have more access to selection than the non-religious?

Filling a school with entitled, it’s not fair, I don’t like the uniform, was this teacher unreasonable, my poor child, type parents would pull it down and it would cease to be a good school

Good Catholic schools are already just as full of those types of parents as any other good school.

Can someone tell me what criteria siblings come under? Ie if you get a Catholic 50% place, then does the following sibling count as a Catholic or fall under the 'other' thereby increasing the Catholic pot

Lotsofsighing It's different for different schools. In some cases I've seen the siblings come first, before the remaining places are split. That way, if the school is already 50:50 then in theory the siblings should be 50:50 too and it should all even out.

In other cases I've seen faith places allocated first, then the siblings come out of the 50% allocated "without reference to faith". In theory that should be ok too so long as the faith families keep up their churchgoing so that the younger siblings can apply under the faith category too. But if they stop going to church when their eldest gets a place, so their younger child doesn't qualify for a faith place then they would be top priority for one of the second 50% places instead.

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notjustbaconbutties · 21/11/2017 09:46

Two more reminders why it's important for people to write to their MPs ..... one from Jacob-Rees Mogg (Conservative, NE Somerset) and the other from Catherine McKinnell (Lab, Newcastle Upon Tyne North).

MPs from both sides of the house are lobbying for the cap to be lifted, and unless other MPs understand the issues they will just stand back and let it happen.

Let's hope Justine Greening stands by her claim to consider the evidence from the consultation responses and stands up to her boss by saying no to her foolish manifesto pledge.

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noblegiraffe · 21/11/2017 12:38

They still haven’t published the consultation responses about this, so how can they simply plough forward? I want to see what people’s concerns were, and the government response to them, otherwise what was the point in the consultation?

notjustbaconbutties · 21/11/2017 13:00

Exactly noblegiraffe. Justine Greening's response to Jacob Rees-Mogg's questions was "I am not sure whether my hon. Friend responded to that review, but we certainly had a number of responses. We are looking through them carefully and I will update the House in due course".

Must have been an awful lot of responses for it to have taken this long! Instead I'm imagining there's a debate and discussion going on in the background about what the outcome should be. Hopefully that's going down the direction of trying to save face for Theresa May if the rule is kept rather than working out how to justify pushing through a change when there's so much evidence and public opinion against it.

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GreenPurpleRed · 21/11/2017 13:38

Of course faith schools are acceptable. Just because it doesn't fit with what you want is a bit tough really.

Ta1kinPeace · 21/11/2017 13:55

Of course faith schools are acceptable.
Why?
Why should money from all taxpayers be used to fund schools that exclude 99% of children
(as any Jewish school does)
or 93% of children
(as any catholic school does)
or 95% of children
(as any islamic school does)

If you want a religiously biased education, cough up the fees and get it
OR
let those of us who want a secular education ban god botherers of all hues from their schools Grin

notjustbaconbutties · 21/11/2017 14:00

GreenPurpleRed I suggest you read the original post again, even if you can't be bothered to read the rest of the thread.

This isn't a thread about whether faith schools are acceptable or not. Faith schools exist in this country and more of them are on their way. This thread is about their admissions policies. That's all. There are plenty of other threads about the wider issues on faith schools.

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notjustbaconbutties · 21/11/2017 14:15

Ta1kinPeace if this country ever does end up with a secular education system I hope it would be a tolerant one. Comments like that really aren't a good advert for it and just play right into the hands of the establishment who want to keep things as they are or give the religious authorities even more control than they already have.

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GreenPurpleRed · 21/11/2017 14:34

My comment was to @lotsofsighing.

Suggest you read your own thread even if you can't be botgered

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